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Old Sat May 13, 2006, 03:38pm
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What's the penalty for.....

a faked tag according to FED. Doing an 13-14 yr old youth league game played under FED rules. Runner on second. Wild pitch. Catcher never recovers in time. As the runner is running to 3rd, third basemen fakes receiving the ball and does a swipe, baiting the runner to slide.

Cant find my rule books ANYWHERE (the story of my life). Thanks for the help.
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Old Sat May 13, 2006, 03:44pm
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SECTION 22 OBSTRUCTION AND FAKE TAG

ARTICLE 1. Obstruction is an act (intentional or unintentional, as well as physical or verbal) by a fielder, any member of the defensive team or its team personnel that hinders a runner or changes the pattern of play as in 5-1-3 and 8-3-2; or when a catcher or fielder hinders a batter as in 5-1-2b, 8-1-1e, 8-3-1c and 8-3-2. When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action and the umpire has authority to determine which base or bases shall be awarded the runners according to the rule violated (Exceptions 3-3-1o, 8-4-2c Note, 8-4-2d).


ARTICLE 2. A fake tag is an act by a defensive player without the ball that simulates a tag. A fake tag is considered
obstruction.



Tim.
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Old Sat May 13, 2006, 03:53pm
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The FED penalty is a minimum 1 base award.

Bob P.
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Old Sat May 13, 2006, 04:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WooPigSooie
a faked tag according to FED. Doing an 13-14 yr old youth league game played under FED rules. Runner on second. Wild pitch. Catcher never recovers in time. As the runner is running to 3rd, third basemen fakes receiving the ball and does a swipe, baiting the runner to slide.

Cant find my rule books ANYWHERE (the story of my life). Thanks for the help.
8-3-2
Obstructed runner and all other runners gets whatever base you feel they would have got had he not been obstructed, in this case third, a minimum of one base beyond his position on base when the obstuction occurred. By the letter of the law 2nd was the last base held before the obstruction so no additional bases are awarded. If he was still applying the tag when he touched third I'd be sending him home.
Also, this is unsportmanlike conduct, so I'd be issuing warnings.
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Old Sat May 13, 2006, 04:17pm
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So, basically, since this was a steal attempt from 2nd to 3rd and 2nd was the last base occupied, leave him at third and issue a warning. But if this was a live batted ball (double to the gap, we'll say) and there was a runner on first at the time, I could possibly issue an award of home to the the runner who began at first if I feel he could have reached the plate.

Correct? Thanks for the help, guys.
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Old Sat May 13, 2006, 04:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WooPigSooie
So, basically, since this was a steal attempt from 2nd to 3rd and 2nd was the last base occupied, leave him at third and issue a warning. But if this was a live batted ball (double to the gap, we'll say) and there was a runner on first at the time, I could possibly issue an award of home to the the runner who began at first if I feel he could have reached the plate.

Correct? Thanks for the help, guys.
Correct.

In the original post, the fake tag was purely out of meanness, definitly unsportsmanlike. In the above situation F6 had a noble purpose of trying to stop the run. If not caught a heads up play. Doesn't change a thing in my decision making but I have to say I appreciate a gamer
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Old Sat May 13, 2006, 08:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WooPigSooie
So, basically, since this was a steal attempt from 2nd to 3rd and 2nd was the last base occupied, leave him at third and issue a warning. But if this was a live batted ball (double to the gap, we'll say) and there was a runner on first at the time, I could possibly issue an award of home to the the runner who began at first if I feel he could have reached the plate.

Correct? Thanks for the help, guys.
Correct. But after a warning for fake tag, the next time he does it eject him.
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Old Sat May 13, 2006, 08:36pm
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So, is the warning is issued to 'fake tagger', not all the players on the team? If I issue a warning and later in the game the same teams second basemen fakes a tag, issue another or eject because the 'team' has been warned.

Sorry for all the questions. I know this is kind of an obscure occurance.
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Old Sat May 13, 2006, 10:28pm
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FED Obstruction

Hey Everyone,

Had a youth 13-14 game tonight in NJ... Thought I would place my 2 cents in.

Tonight I had obstr. on a rundown between 3rd and home. The 3rd baseman got in the way of the runner by blocking his base path and was not apart of the play. The runner had to run on the grass to avoid him while the throw was going over both their heads to 3rd base where the S.s. was playing. (play FED rules)... Tagged out due to the obstr. So, called time and I awarded him home. You guessed it, the coach went nuts... I had to run the assistant coach because he ran onto the field and started going while and the coach understood after he calmed down what the rule is.

Obstruction/Interference is one of the harder things to call as an umpire. Some are black & white, while others regard running and advantage/disadvantage (can you tell I ref basketball too?)

I would warn the player/team and tell/explain to the coach (this is youth ball) what happened and why. He should have words with his team... Any repeat offense should be considered unsportsmanlike since they all should be told that, that is not allowed.... Maybe not ejection immediately, but def. enforce the obstr.

Again, Just my 2 Cents.

Pat
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Old Sat May 13, 2006, 10:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WooPigSooie
So, is the warning is issued to 'fake tagger', not all the players on the team? If I issue a warning and later in the game the same teams second basemen fakes a tag, issue another or eject because the 'team' has been warned.

Sorry for all the questions. I know this is kind of an obscure occurance.
Fake tags aren't all that rare.
Issuing the warning can be a team or individual warning, your choice, because since it is unsportsmanlike conduct you are not obligated to issue a warning, you could if appropriate eject on the first occurrence.
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Old Sun May 14, 2006, 04:28pm
DG DG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIump50
Fake tags aren't all that rare.
Issuing the warning can be a team or individual warning, your choice, because since it is unsportsmanlike conduct you are not obligated to issue a warning, you could if appropriate eject on the first occurrence.
Let's not mis-lead WooPigSooie. A fake tag is obstruction. Award bases as approprite. "After the end of playing action, the umpire shall issue a warning to the coach of the team involved and the next offender on that team shall be ejected." So it is a team warning, and the next offender on that team is ejected. There is no basis for ejection on the first offense. If you issue an "official" warning, to the coach, you must eject on the next offense by the same team.
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Old Sun May 14, 2006, 04:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT THE REF
Hey Everyone,
You guessed it, the coach went nuts... I had to run the assistant coach because he ran onto the field and started going while and the coach understood after he calmed down what the rule is.
An assistant running onto the field to argue will result in instantaneous ejection. A head coach running onto the field to argue could result in instantaneous ejection.
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Old Sun May 14, 2006, 04:37pm
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Yes.. That is what I did. I ran him before he could even make his point. I agree but the coach remained somewhat quiet and restrained in his dugout.
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Old Sun May 14, 2006, 05:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG
Let's not mis-lead WooPigSooie. A fake tag is obstruction. Award bases as approprite. "After the end of playing action, the umpire shall issue a warning to the coach of the team involved and the next offender on that team shall be ejected." So it is a team warning, and the next offender on that team is ejected. There is no basis for ejection on the first offense. If you issue an "official" warning, to the coach, you must eject on the next offense by the same team.
I think you're right. I stand corrected.
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Old Sun May 14, 2006, 05:50pm
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How does the FED obstruction penalty influence how you call obstruction?

In my opinion, the OBR method of allowing us to make a "judgment" call on whether to award bases, and the number of bases to award is much more fair then the FED penalty.

For example, during a JV game, BR collided with F3 who was standing on top of first base, and in his own words, "just minding my own business". I instinctively called "that's obstruction". After the play I awarded BR second base. If the game was played under OBR, he would have stayed at 1b.

My opinion is that we should call obstruction every time a fielder is in the way of a runner. The defense needs to learn to pay attention and stay out of the runner's way. If we don't call obstruction when we see it, the defense gains a great advantage.

I don't agree with the FED's penalty for obstruction.

Bob P.
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