Misc. Ramblings (long post, sorry)

[RPatrino]

Folks, had an interesting JV game yesterday, so I thought I'd relay some incidents and get your thoughts. BTW, I worked this game solo, could have really used a partner.

1) This was a JV game, a double-header of sorts. Due to all the games we had to cancel because of the rain around here we have begun to play two 5 inning games in one day. Has anyone else done this?

2) Apparently these two teams did not like each other. The coach's didn't like each other and the fans didn't like each other. I did not know this, going into the game. Our association uses the Arbiter program and that seems like the ideal place to put this type of info. Does anyone who use Arbiter use it for that sort of thing? Had I known that these teams had a history it would have changed my approach to the game going into it.

3) The game included 3 team warnings and an ejection.
a) One team warning was for a fake tag, F2 simulated a tag at the plate and caused a runner to slide.
b) The second team warning was for coach's addressing the other teams players. That is a violation of 3-2-1, but there is no penalty associated with it, so I pulled both HC's together and told them to have it stopped. Was that the right way to handle this problem?
c) The third team warning was for spectator behavior. I may have over reached here but I did not want to have to get involved in managing the fans, so I pulled the HC's together and told them both to get control of the fans or I will have to. Any other thoughts?
d) EJ was for pitcher throwing at batter. R3 comes home on a squeeze, and the pitcher airmails the ball into the backstop, R3 scores easily. Scoring team whoops it up, as that was the go ahead run. F1 then sends the next pitch sailing behind the batter at head height. I tell him to "knock it off". He then proceeds to send the 2-0 pitch behind the batter again... I toss him. I get both HC's together for yet another meeting and tell them, I won't tolerate this and I will EJ each and every pitcher who intentionally throws at a batter, and that I expect them to get control of their teams and coach's immediately, and that we WILL finish this game without further incident. We did, it ended 11-5.

Whew! I could have used a partner. Sorry for the long post.

Bob P.

[blueump]

Question on the fake tag. Did you warn only or did you also call obstruction and award bases? Proper procedure is to call obstruction and then toss for the next offense.

Personally, I leave the crowd completely out of it. What happens outside the fence is not my problem. I deal with on the field not off. With that said, I think you did the right thing in calling the HC together and letting them know that it wasn't wanted.

Where was the AD of the school during this mess?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by blueump

Question on the fake tag. Did you warn only or did you also call obstruction and award bases? Proper procedure is to call obstruction and then toss for the next offense.

Personally, I leave the crowd completely out of it. What happens outside the fence is not my problem. I deal with on the field not off. With that said, I think you did the right thing in calling the HC together and letting them know that it wasn't wanted.

Where was the AD of the school during this mess?

I've never had an athletic director at a high school baseball game. Always at basketball and football, but never at baseball.

[blueump]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I've never had an athletic director at a high school baseball game. Always at basketball and football, but never at baseball.

I must be spoiled. I can't remember the last game I did when I didn't see the AD

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blueump

I must be spoiled. I can't remember the last game I did when I didn't see the AD

I am with Rich. We do not see an AD much around here either. During the basketball and football seasons, those are the only games going on for the most part. During the baseball season, there is Soccer, Lacrosse, Softball and sometimes Boy's Volleyball is going on at the same time. Baseball is a fringe sport in these parts. Heck we cannot even get the local cable companies to cover baseball games for the "Game of the Week" coverage. The funny thing I have seen all the other sports shown on TV all the time. I think the ADs in my area have too much to do at one time. I might see them early in a game walking around making sure all the officials are being paid, but that is about the only time I see them.

Peace

[RPatrino]

I too, have never seen an AD at a baseball game, except at a playoff game.

The fake tag occured at the plate, with F2 faking the runner into sliding. The runner was safe. I called the obstruction, but EMPHASIZED with the F2 that it was also unsportsmanlike conduct and I would treat it as such. I then issued warnings to both teams.

And while I generally ignore the stuff coming from the stands, when it gets the opposing team and coach's involved I have to draw the line. The opposing teams base coach's were yelling back and forth at the opponents fans, then the base coach's fans were yelling at the opponents fans. That is uncalled for and it can't help but get the player's involved at some point.

bob P.

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I've never had an athletic director at a high school baseball game. Always at basketball and football, but never at baseball.

During Baseball season, there are other spring sports that take place on the same days, and the same time. Schools only have one AD. A good AD will bounce between all sports going on that day.

Rarely have I ever had an AD introduce themselves to me at a game. If they are there, I don't know it.

Although, the other day, an AD came out to the parking lot, introduced himself to my partner and I, then handed us a couple of cold waters. Very small school, with limited sports.

[RPatrino]

Where was that Nick, I want some of those games!!

Bob P

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

What a nightmare-if only a union umpire had been available, those things never would have happened...

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Where was that Nick, I want some of those games!!

Bob P

Maybe not...Modesto Calif.

The visiting team went up 18 - 0 in a 45 minute first half inning !

And it went downhill from there.

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

c) The third team warning was for spectator behavior. I may have over reached here but I did not want to have to get involved in managing the fans, so I pulled the HC's together and told them both to get control of the fans or I will have to. Any other thoughts?

i wouldnt get involved in managing the fans. pulling the coaches aside between innings and telling them to keep their fans in control isnt a bad idea. however, i wouldnt mention that you will step up and do it if he cant -- make him know that he will be doing the controlling. i might be going about it wrong, and would like to hear better ways if possible, but thats all i can think of.

[BlueLawyer]

Originally Posted by briancurtin

i wouldnt get involved in managing the fans. pulling the coaches aside between innings and telling them to keep their fans in control isnt a bad idea. however, i wouldnt mention that you will step up and do it if he cant -- make him know that he will be doing the controlling. i might be going about it wrong, and would like to hear better ways if possible, but thats all i can think of.

I have ejected three fans in my 17 years of officiating, twice in baseball and once in basketball. I think I was right all three times.

Time number one- summer baseball- 1991 or 1992. An obviously intoxicated woman starts berating me with F-bombs and other profanities after I call a strike on her son. The crowd of maybe 50 parts from around her and you can see her screaming and standing/weaving up in the grandstand. Her poor son turns to me, literally in tears and says, "I'm sorry, Blue." I called time and got the league president, who happened to be at the game, and said, "There won't be one more pitch in this game until that woman is out of here." He took care of it.

Time number two- high school baseball, probably 1995 or 1996. A run-rule is at issue, and the teams are disputing what the score is. I go to the official scorebook (home team mom) and get an answer, which I considered to be authoritative. I turn around to start the game again and hear a large commotion behind me. A fan from the other team, unhappy with the scorebook, starts in on her hard, cussing her. She looks horrified. I get the home coach and tell him to take care of it. We eventually had to get the police there.

Time number three- high school basketball, 1999 or 2000. Running the floor on the sidelines with the stands about 18 inches from the sidelines. A drunk (see a theme here?) fan slurs something to me about "youbetterstar'callin . . ." That's all I heard before I was out of earshot. The next time past him, he obviously and deliberately stuck his legs out in an attempt to trip me. Whistle- (no "T") get the home coach and say "This game stops until that man is out of this gym." Luckily, the cops were already at that game and as they were escorting him out in cuffs he yell/slurred at me "Youcan' kick me out!" I said to myself, "I just did."

I let the fans be fans right up until the time they cross the line. Where that line is depends, in my opinion, on their behavior vis-a-vis the level of the game. In my first fan ejection, for example, I was not going to continue a game with 15 year-old kids while a steady blue streak of profanity was coming out of the stands. In the scorekeeper incident, the fan was interfering with her ability to do her job. And drunk jackass in the basketball game was literally a physical danger to me. Most of the time you can and should ignore the fans, but sometimes, you have to deal with them.

Strikes and outs!

[bbump82]

Bluelawyer has it right. As I understand our authority on the field, we don't have any authority over what goes on outside the fence. If the nonsense gets to a point that it is disrupting the game, all you are able to do is get the HC's together and tell them to get the fans under control. Stop the game until such time as it is under control. If they can't do that, suspend the game and leave.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE=RPatrino]Folks, had an interesting JV game yesterday, so I thought I'd relay some incidents and get your thoughts. BTW, I worked this game solo, could have really used a partner.

Bob I do not know about your area but in mine most if not all HS coaches are also Teachers. According to your thread, I would not want any of these coaches teaching my kids.

Therefore, if the game was as ugly as you describe, I would send a letter describing what took place to:

1. My assignor.
2. Both AD's and perhaps more importantly
3. The Board of Education

RE: I have seen it happen in my area. When a coach also a teacher behaved in the manner you described, I know of 2 cases, where the coach was brought before the Board of Education and their coaching days were over and in one case also one's teaching career as well.

b) The second team warning was for coach's addressing the other teams players. That is a violation of 3-2-1, but there is no penalty associated with it, so I pulled both HC's together and told them to have it stopped. Was that the right way to handle this problem?

There is a penalty - Ejection or at the very least Restrict the coach to the bench area.


c) The third team warning was for spectator behavior. I may have over reached here but I did not want to have to get involved in managing the fans, so I pulled the HC's together and told them both to get control of the fans or I will have to. Any other thoughts?

Too many Warnings for one game. Call the HT coach over and simply say, Skip if so and so spectator is not removed we are done for the day. If it's a group of spectators, they all can go. It's apparent that these teams DID NOT want to play baseball. As umpires we are there to officiate what should be a baseball game and if the teams and Spectators want to "duke it out" then they can go on Friday Night RAW (Wrestling) and they do not need us.

d) EJ was for pitcher throwing at batter. R3 comes home on a squeeze, and the pitcher airmails the ball into the backstop, R3 scores easily. Scoring team whoops it up, as that was the go ahead run. F1 then sends the next pitch sailing behind the batter at head height. I tell him to "knock it off". He then proceeds to send the 2-0 pitch behind the batter again... I toss him. I get both HC's together for yet another meeting and tell them, I won't tolerate this and I will EJ each and every pitcher who intentionally throws at a batter, and that I expect them to get control of their teams and coach's immediately, and that we WILL finish this game without further incident. We did, it ended 11-5.

Again, too many warnings. In addition the coach also goes when you toss F1.

Side Note: It's my gut that these 2 teams have had disciplinary problems before. What did other umpires in your association do? Did they turn a blind eye? etc. These 2 teams need to be "slapped hard". The types of incidents you describe (coach talking to opposing players, F1 throwing at the head area) can turn REAL ugly.

Pete Booth

[RPatrino]

Pete, thanks for your thoughtful response. I appreciate it.

In my area, I have found that most non-varsity teams are coached by volunteers. More than likely the local LL, Pony or Babe Ruth program. I hold them to the same standards as I would a teacher, emphasizing that this is an educational experience as well as an athletic endeavor.

As far as the EJ of the coach for a pitcher throwing at a batter, I don't find that in the FED rules, or in the BRD. That is an NCAA/OBR penalty. I warned the coach's that they would go, anyway, and I would have tossed them if another batter was flagrantly hit.

I know how ugly these type of things can get, I ejected 8 players in one game.

It's important that if we know that these teams have had history, then we need to let whoever works them know that going in.

Bob P.