The AMLU's Birmingham Folly
 

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I'm sick and tired of all the misinformation as to what is going on, so I thought I would finally write a post that would hopefully clear up some issues, and, I pray, will be read by some of the AMLU members to start a groundswell to pull themselves off the ground and get running again. First, a back story...

In 2001, when the union first formed, the AMLU had some able leaders who certainly argued with Randy Mobley and the rest of the negotiators from the other side. However, there was a much bigger rapport between those AMLU leaders and Mobley and the boys because they all umpired in his league. In fact, the statement was made after the negotiation that, "You (AMLU) couldn't have picked a better group of professional individuals to represent you at the table." (That is a paraphrase, can't remember the exact wording). This comment was from none other than Pat O'Connor, who heads up PBUC!

The union settled an issue in 2002 involving the fact that the Intl. League would not pay for in-town gasoline for their umpires, although, in some cities (Buffalo, for example), the ballpark was a 20 minute drive from the hotel they put them up in. The new union president, Ryan West, decided it was time to file a grievance. The AMLU administrator at the time was Jeff Kowalczyk. He instead, and wisely so, advised the president and board to allow him to contact the IL, i.e., Mobley, and discuss the situation. He informed Mobley that they would be filing a grievance, and they were down to their last day on it, but they wanted to not "blindside" the IL over this. Mobley appreciated the gesture, and informed the AMLU that he completely understood why they were filing. The situation, handled correctly, ended up being settled without a grievance...just a sit down discussion.

So...where did they go wrong?

ANDY ROBERTS and his cronies is where they went wrong! Listen to this list of truths:

As soon as Andy Roberts, from Birmingham, AL, was elected President, he immediately removed Kowalczyk, a veteran umpire who had been released earlier and now was managing the funds of the AMLU, from his position. Kowalczyk had placed the money of the AMLU in a fund that would have matured in the fall of 2005, just in time to go to the negotiating table. This money was "mysteriously" removed from the account at the request of Roberts. There was a early withdrawal penalty on the money, which actually cost the AMLU a net loss of thousands of dollars if you factor the return on investment lost and the withdrawal penalties. The money was put into annuities, which reap great financial rewards for the agent who gains the commission...PS...the annuities are in BIRMINGHAM, where Roberts works in selling...oh, my...annuities...so guess who gets the commission???

As soon as Andy Roberts was elected President, he immediately removed Beth Saindon, the labor attorney who was involved in the first negotiations in 2001. Ask anyone in pro baseball about Beth, and they will tell you, "Management would do ANYTHING to get rid of Beth from the room." Beth was a THORN in the side of PBUC. She is the major reason there was a deal in 2001, PERIOD. Roberts replaced Saindon with Robert Weaver...ROBERT WHO??? Weaver is the attorney who told the union after three short weeks of striking, "This is the best deal you'll get from them." Gee, what a brilliant strategy! Oh, and by the way...Weaver is from BIRMINGHAM...are you seeing the picture?

As soon as Andy Roberts was elected President, he immediately shutout all access to any umpires who had been released. Several former umpires have attempted to better the conditions for their former brethren, only to have communication shut off. The AMLU was set up in a way to allow umpires who were released to have some say, albeit much smaller, in the union. A real leader would embrace the words of their colleagues, not shut them out. Then, after the negotiations started in late 2005, the AMLU by-laws were "mysteriously changed" to allow released umpires to remain on the Board of Directors or the Officers positions. Guess who fell under that? Brian Hale, Vice President of the AMLU...Oh, by the way...Did you know Brian is from BIRMINGHAM?

They also have grieved every little incident that has occured in his tenure, instead of working with the management staff. No calls, no, "hey, can we sit down and talk about this before we have to grieve it?" Nope, not this group...take it to the NLRB. Why do you think management is playing hardball? It's because they have NO RESPECT for the AMLU anymore after their whine here, whine there, whine everywhere approach.

The point of this post is everything Andy Roberts has touched has gone to hell in a handbasket. This needs to be read by every single AMLU member to realize what has happened. As a former member, I'm embarrased and ashamed and sorry what has happened to these poor umpires. They asked for it, they got it, but I don't think they realized WHAT they had lost when they voted for Roberts and his cronies.

It's time the AMLU either disbanded, or the membership reformed with a new union, a new leadership group, and MOST DEFINITELY a board of directors that are not CURRENT UMPIRES...there is too much temptation to save your own skin at the price of your friends' skin when the Fhit hits the San...

I wish everyone of them the best of luck, and if you are reading this and know an AMLU member...please please please pass this onto them.

so, this is the brotherhood they refer to.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

no thanks

Maybe Jiggy and SoCalBlue will acknowledge that my sources may have been better than they suspected. At least five months ago I wrote that Andy and the boys up top were selling the membership a bill of goods. I took a lot of flak for it but continued to implore the membership to disband the union and either start a new one or sign individual contracts to prevent the inevitable. I offered that they were wasting their talent and the dream would soon end. Does anyone recall those posts?

Now it seems that the more the public discovers about the situation, the more it sees that greed has played a major hand in this fiasco. Few of us have found fault with the individual umpires. The machine seems to be destroying those on board rather than those in the gun sights. Even the amateurs, who are targets of their terror, have weathered the storm.

I can't imagine what the 2/3 were thinking. PBUC is holding a Royal Flush and AMLU still thinks they can bluff them.

you are a genius, sir. you should go into a new line of work, maybe a fotrune teller?

Thank you!

I'm looking for a new landscaper, now that my illegal immigrant contractors may have to go home. If you aren't busy for the rest of the season, er, I mean summer, you should give me a call.

Really...

While I still fully support thier efforts to make their situation better, it's looking more like the worst case scenario may be the result. That still may be better for the "game" though. The system will have to be dismantled. Sure, the games will go on with replacements and I truly respect their courage, albeit with selfish motive. I can't fathom that this will be a long term solution. Short A will start soon and the talent pool will get thinner. I agree with WWTB in that there are many real talented replacements. Their problem isn't necessarily ability. It's 3 man instincts and the rigors of a 140 game season. OK, A ball uses 2 man crews but if umps have been working higher levels, it's still going to be a long season.

I agree it seems to be a futile strike if you look at it through selfish eyes. Think about what it's going to do for the system as a whole. Local guys may still get a piece of the pie when PBUC puts this all back together. Only the true elite will get through UDC and then only work the highest levels (AA and AAA, perhaps). That way there aren't 220 guys trying to slip through that narrow door but maybe half that many. PBUC can work them through more quickly. No more stringing 30 somethings along for peanuts following an empty promise. After five years, tag a guy for MLB until a space opens up for him.

Everyone umps for their own reasons. I don't need their games. I have a job, a family and a life. I try not to succeed by the failure of others but on my own merits. For those of you working the games that have friends in the system, I hope your relationships heal. For those of you that didn't work, I hope little Jimmy will still get to go to private school this fall.

Rest assured, I will always have your back.

D-Man

You are only too ready to prove your ignorance. Any person reading your mindless dribble is wasting valuable time they could otherwise use to watch tv or clip their toenails.

It's okay to admit that you were wrong...again.

My mindless drivel keeps proving accurate while your posts keep showing why the AMLU guys will never have a chance. The proof is in the pudding, buddy.

Did you help author the latest spin from AMLU about the ejection of the Ottawa Lynx coach. Yeah, he couldn't have been pissed off because his .400 ball club just gave up an eighth inning go ahead run. Nah, his tirade after the ball game was fodder for the same guys that dismiss most ejected Skipper's reactions. It's funny that the very same guys that say that the players and coaches don't know the rules let alone umpiring are giving some of them full credit. Do you think they will give equal coverage to the Mercury News article about how the umpires are doing a great job?

Go back to clipping your toes and watching TV. I have to get my gear ready for tomorrow's game. You could come watch it and critique if you want. We all know that your are completely objective and terribly skilled.

No Ref(erence) Skills Necessary
 

"If you aren't busy for the rest of the season, er, I mean summer, you should give me a call."

Careful, that may be a five month summer in his parts. But try to improve the quality of your life while your there. He already knows he could hire you to work through the rest of the year too. Autumn ball needs raking, winter ball needs shoveling, and spring trainng needs cleaning. But he really isn't interested in keeping YOU around long term. So remember, it is only TEMP related work.

I am well set for the remainder of my summer, but i appreciate the "migrant worker" comment. Real classy guy, I bet if I saw ten pictures I could easily pick you out of those ten.

Cheers.

Based on your history of gambling, I'd bet you would be wrong.

Suffice to say that the thin skin so many professional umpires are supposed to have is proving insufficient.

You show your ignorance once again. I made no such comment about migrant workers. (As long as they legally enter, pay taxes and support our laws, I'm all for them enjoying our glorious bounty.) I used sarcasm to imply that the illegal immigrants that cut my lawn may soon be out of work. I was offering a helping hand to my brethren. Isn't that what you are doing by publicly displaying their photos - just praising them and acknowledging their desire to support the game?

Good night...I'm tired and you are not a capable adversary in this battle.

battle? what battle? the battle to see who cuts your lawn? You have confused me with your off topic, off color remarks.

I am done dealing with you and will instead go stare that Miznuno mask from another post. I bet that mask makes better conversation and less hot air than this thread does.

Finally...

I'm not the one with the reading impairment. Good riddance!

Actually,
 

I hate to interupt such a wonderful battle between the two of you but things are changing in my area.

Slightly.

Our replacement umpires have been told that "the muzzle" has been lifted from the managers, coaches and players and umpires should be ready for a "real world" experience of working minor league baseball.

Regards,

My area too. Saw a manager last Sunday arguing safe/out at 2B on a steal. AA game. I've seen a half dozen games this season, and this is the first time they came out to argue a bad call (and it wasn't by any accounting the first bad call).

I had determined not to weigh in on this issue, but enough is enough.

Greed? This is a new low, even for WhatWuzThatBlue.

You call "greed" asking for a wage that's far, far below the poverty level?

Tell me: Which of you would work for $6500 for two-and-a-half months? Even though your family is eligible for food stamps, it would be next-to-impossible. Oh, you say, there's the off-season job. Right: You starve while you're working and then return to some job where you can take off for 10 weeks without losing your place in the pecking order. Not even a pizza delivery "boy" could do that.

The so-called "arbitrator's" offer was $100 raise and $2 more per diem, but the $500 deductible for insurance remained for the duration of the six-year contract.

Boys and girls, it's time for you to understand what's happening. The major advantage MiLB has is that umpires are ambitious. We want to move up, and apparently we're willing to do it at any cost. At least, that's what MiLB is banking on.

When the amateur umpiring in any small town improves, so do the players. That's undeniable. Major league clubs throw around millions. MILLIONS. They own minor league <i>teams</i>, but they do not support the minor <i>leagues</i>. According to Mike Fitzpatrick in his interview for Officiating.com, the umpire salaries are all paid from gate receipts and other local revenues of the various clubs.

But there's a huge, untaxed amount of money lying around that could be used to subsidize minor league umpires. Here, courtesy of USA Today, is a table showing the yearly payrolls of the major league teams:

Arizona Diamondbacks $60,000,000
Atlanta Braves $90,000,000
Baltimore Orioles $73,000,000
Boston Red Sox $120,000,000
Chicago Cubs $94,000,000
Chicago White Sox $103,000,000
Cincinnati Reds $61,000,000
Cleveland Indians $56,000,000
Colorado Rockies $41,000,000
Detroit Tigers $83,000,000
Florida Marlins $15,000,000
Houston Astros $93,000,000
Kansas City Royals $47,000,000
Los Angeles Angels $103,000,000
Los Angeles Dodgers $98,000,000
Milwaukee Brewers $58,000,000
Minnesota Twins $63,000,000
New York Mets $101,000,000
New York Yankees $195,000,000
Oakland Athletics $62,000,000
Philadelphia Phillies $88,000,000
Pittsburgh Pirates $47,000,000
San Diego Padres $70,000,000
San Francisco Giants $90,000,000
Seattle Mariners $88,000,000
St. Louis Cardinals $89,000,000
Tampa Bay Devil Rays $35,000,000
Texas Rangers $68,000,000
Toronto Blue Jays $72,000,000
Washington Nationals $63,000,000

That's a total of $2,326,000,000 PER YEAR. That's two BILLION, 326 MILLION dollars.

Let's levey a 1% tax on that sum, paid for out of the players' salaries. ONE PERCENT would raise $23,260,000. Assuming 220 minor league umpires, that works out to about $106,000 each. Add to that the current MiLB contribution, and you have the funds to maintain a stable of professional (and professionally paid) umpires.

You would have the very best umpires. The very best umpires in the minor leagues means the very best players in the major leagues.

I have been shocked by the amount of vitriol and animosity displayed here against a small band of courageous brothers. But we're like the lobsters in the barrel. As soon as one reaches the top, inches from escape and safety, the others pull him back down. "They" made it, and we didn't. We're still working 14u in the summer, JV in the spring.

Their success should be our success. Shame! For shame!

Doubtful
 

I understand your thoughts but MLB dumped the umpire program on the minors and told the minors to pay for it about ten years ago. Do you really think MLB wants spend money on it after getting rid of the umpire program?

So you want to take the money from MLB players and give it to the minor league umpires? You consider it the job of the MLB players to pay for the training of the umpires? Since you earn money from the sport of baseball maybe you should also pay a 1% tax on your earnings, isn’t that what your logic dictates?

While I support every person’s right to make as much money as they can it still boils down to a few basic things:
1. How important is their job to the industry? This is determined by the industry.
2. What is the supply and demand? Are there 1000’s of people trying for a couple of hundred jobs?

This is not a necessary correct. Paying someone more money doesn't make them better employees. If you double the minimum wage would you get your fries faster at the local fastfood joint?

I guess its shame, shame on me. I don't agree with you that the MLB players owe the umpires a living. I built a business without anyone giving me 1% of their salaries and there were years when I brought home less than these umpires do.

They are apprentices. They are in the minors learning their trade. To my understanding working in the minor leagues is not meant to be the end of a career path, it’s the beginning. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to reach your goals.

IMHO your plan hints of Socialism.

You intimate they wouldn't, and you're probably right. MLB hates umpires. HATES them. But perhaps when the current agreement runs out, that could be one of the issues in negotiation.

Remember, my proposal is for a "tax" on the players' salaries. Alex Rodriguez can afford 1% a year, especially since it would be deductible. Remember, too, the players cannot do without the umpires. It's only right that they share some of the burden of paying them.

The fans would love this idea, and it would be a public relations disaster if the player's union opposed it. "ONE PERCENT," Joe says, while sipping on his Coors Lite. "I'm paying #$3.00 a gallon for gas, and they're griping about one percent?"

Athlete tax
 

Unfortunately cities and states all over the country have been on to this idea for a few years now and have passed "entertainment" taxes that tax pro athletes based on the number of days they spend in a city. This would be just another of these taxes but you're right, Joe Fan doesn't mind sticking the rich athletes with another tax. Tax returns for A-Rod and other pro players can run hundreds of pages because of all the schedules, etc. that have to be filed relating to these taxes all over the place. I've heard that part of the reason Clemens negotiated the deal where he wasn't required to all away games was to avoid some of these taxes.

I don't know that umpires should be making $106,000 when minor league gms and other staff are working for peanuts also.

Sorry. I was talking merely about a fund for minor league umpires. Hotels, travel, food, insurance, uniforms, training (how about scholarships to deserving umpire candidates at the umpire schools?) No one expects lower-level umpires to make half what a major umpire makes.

As to taxing ballplayers, cities would put that money into the general fund. My tax money would remain completely with baseball.

Since you continue to say the AMLU umpires are mere apprentices let's discuss apprentice wages shall we. For example, the average scale of a first year apprentice in the building trades is 45% of journeyman wages. Each year as their hours increase in the trade their percentage goes up until it finally tops out at 90% of journeymen scale sometime during their last year of indenturement. All the while they share the same benefits as the journeymen. Same health care plan, same annuity contribution percentage, and same pension percentage.

So if we were to translate that into the percentage of the wages of the lowest level pay scale in MLB, it would come out to $40,500 in just salary alone for a first year umpire. A veteran of AAA waiting for his shot at the next level, should then be making $81,000. in just salary. I'm not saying that these numbers aren't way high for a MiLB umpire, because they are. But, if you insist on referring to them as apprentices you should do more research into what comparable apprentice wages are.


Tim.

Double the minimum wage and you'll cut in half the problems you have in the Drive-thru.

You built your business, not by retaining 1% of your employees' wages, but by keeping as much as you could while still being able to hire workers. Your "tax" was, as you know, far more than one percent.

My plan hints of socialism? Let me tell you socialism: medicare, defense, social security, homeland security, roads, levees (except in New Orleans). My plan does not scatter the money over the general populace.

And besides, if socialism is so bad, why is it built into the fabric of society everywhere? Remember Star Trek II: The good of the many outweighs the good of the few or the one.

Once upon a time there were career minor league umpires. You could look it up.

That all changed with the first contract with the major league umpires. Now, MiLB has a three-year clause: If you don't move up after three years, bye-bye.

Reason: They can continue to pay a pittance for their AAA umpires. If the majors have evinced an interest in an umpire, he can remain longer; but he can NEVER make a career of professional baseball unless he's in the majors.

Think about it.

Once again.....two points:

(1) I'm in favor of a person earning as much as the market allows but
(2) The market is controlled by supply and demand.

It's really that simple....the price of gas going up is an example, except with gas it's a global market that impacts supply/demand.

Your comparison to building trades is not exactly the same as for MLB. The building trade apprentices are actually working along with "pro's" on actual projects. Minor league umpires are not working MLB with the pro umpires. They are more like a college student who is "intering" for a company to gain experience while still in school. So I'll change the term I use from 'apprentice' to 'intern'....... They are interns.

...seems like that if this system is so horrid, pro-school graduates should have declined all invitations to the PBUC in droves. That would send a clear message that they weren't going to buy into the years (3, anyway)-of-poverty-for-a-01%-chance-at-the-brass-ring philosophy.

Yet the pro schools are booming business, and AFAIK PBUC has had no trouble attracting grads to the Rookie League (or whatever). This is the metric that MiLB/MLB sees: despite the rhetoric, there are plenty of replacements/scabs/whatever clamoring to fill these jobs at an acceptable (to THEIR customer, Joe Fan) level of performance. Just like there's always another AMLU member to step in when ole reliable Joe Basepath was summarily fired after 3 years because no one died at the next level and he wasn't promoted. Ambitious umpires eat their young...its what got them into the system in the first place.

No one is yet angry ENOUGH to demolish the system and start over, because a lot of umpires with years invested in the current system would be washed out, despite their miniscule chances of making the 'show'

RE: revenue, I understand your POV, Carl, but your solution has about as much chance as Steinbrenner sending all his cable-TV revenue to 'small market' teams because 'its fair.' It will never happen.

I'm sure that everything you say is correct. But they knew what they were getting into right from the start....if they didn't then they are too stupid to have the job.

I'm not against the strike.....I wish them luck, after all I'm a capitalist. It's just that I do not feel sorry for them.

An example in my life is my #3 son. He spent years chasing his NHL dream. Years of making very little money, riding on buses, staying in cheap hotels and eating fastfood. He held off getting married or even being in a serious relationship while he was out there trying to make it. He survived by working odd jobs when he wasn't playing. He understood that there wouldn't be very much money unless he worked his way into the NHL, he never complained. When the NHL went on strike he gave up and at 23 went back to college.

You must have fairly good eyes to be able to tell that a call on a tag play at 2B was a "bad call" from the stands.

I was tempted to ignore your post as an homage to your behavior towards me over the last few months. However, I take great pains to set the record straight on this board. A few members have replied in similar language to what I would have used. However, you can't ignore the fact that MiLB has maintained that the PBUC system is a training grounds and not a promise of a comfortable lifestyle. Like artists, musicians and the armed services, you are paid a pittance while you pay your dues. No promise of glory or assurances of luxury are made. I have firsthand knowledge of the program, albeit a long time ago. Our conditions were much worse and we knew that when we signed on. Even Iassogna admits that he had to work three jobs a year to insure that he would make it. That is the price you pay for a shot at glory.

Your idea of paying a living wage for the umpires is noble but misguided. Do you really think it makes sense to pay the umpires when many of the players in those leagues are in the same boat? Many teams have sponsor families to provide housing for the players because they aren't paid enough to make it. Yet, the umpires should get at the head of that line? Come on Carl, even you don't believe that. You are opening Pandora's box and it will be very messy.

Why should MLB subsidize the umpires in the Minor Leagues? Ninety-nine percent of the cadidates wash out and the few that make it are like Supreme Court Justices - they enjoy a lifetime of perks unless they mess up! Froemming is finally retiring after thirty six years in the game. Brinkmann and a few others have been at it so long that they are now seeing the children of the players at work. MLB doesn't need to restock the ranks that often. This year will be an exception and the AAA guys are scared that they will lose out.

MLB dipped into the amateur ranks when their staff walked out and the game went on. That was many years ago and we both know that amateur umpiring has been transformed. Our training, knowledge and dediaction are light years from twenty years ago. We are seeing that amateurs can make a transition and a very few can get the job done at the highest level. (We saw some fine example of the AAA best at the WBC and they looked worse than the NCAA Championship crew.)

I have not taken issue with the idea that they deserve more. The union brass is at fault for allowing this issue to deteriorate. The very idea that they permitted a 'Scab' photo album tells me all I needed to know about my professional brethren. The facts are coming out and the union asked for much more than they are admitting in their spin campaign. PBUC saw no merit to such ridiculous demands and we are where we are because of it.

I don't begrudge the indivdual MiLB umpire for wanting a better living, but he KNEW WHAT HE WAS GETTING INTO WHEN HE SIGNED THE CONTRACT. We all did and no matter what Hubler says, no one guaranteed success. By the way, he's been at it for ten years, so some of them do try to hang on longer than logic would dictate.

The fact remains, the schools are full with hopefuls who are willing to be trained. The amateurs who are serving as replacements are doing a solid job. Yes, we are enlightened spectators and can find fault with mechanics and second guess calls from the stands. When you are out there, do you put much stock in a coach questioning your judgement from one hundred and fifty feet away? The same mistakes are being made and tempers will flare. The teams that are playing need to win and the players need to shine. I can't recall the last time an umpire was blamed for ending the career of a player. Like the coach who blames the umpire when he is ejected after his team squanders a lead...shut up already!

I understand your point Carl, there has to be a better way. In a perfect world, they would all make salaries comensurate with their talent. But like any business, you get what the boss thinks you are worth. If they win a substantial increase, I won't boo and hiss. I WILL recall how they tried to smear the reputations of some brave souls who stepped up and did a very thankless job. Amateur umpires will support their professional brothers when they behave like professionals. The damage is done for now...I've written it before - the shame is that they are throwing away the dream because they expected more. They are given a lottery ticket when they sign on. There are many amateurs that would like to be in their shoes and have a shot at that glory. They too are willing to work for peanuts for that chance. PBUC knows this only too well. I imagine that the schools are going to be full next year too.

In the next movie when they returned to search for Spock didn't Capt. Kirk tell Spock that sometimes the good of the one outweighs the good of the many?

Actually I built my business by working many long and hard days and making whatever sacrifices were required. Not by asking people to give me 1% of their earnings. It might have helped but I didn't think about it at the time

The only 'true' examples of socialism, since to the best of my knowledge Star Trek II was a sci-fi movie, are places like the the former USSR and even to some extent Canada. Try getting some elective surgery done in Canada. I have a brother-in-law in the medical profession in Canada and he can tell you horror stories about their system. IMHO giving people things for nothing breeds the continued need for additional handouts (i.e., our welfare system) and increased taxation. I could talk for hours on this subject but this is not the forum.

Unlike MiLB I have always paid my people well. I knew from the very start that even if you produce a great product you are nothing without great people. I hope that the umpires get more money, but not by taxing the players.

To take a page from Carl's book:

I hereby proclaim that we can solve another pressing problem of financing those who make insufficient livings. If we simply garnish 1% of the salaries of Tom Cruise, Julia Roberts, Tom Hanks, Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Anjelina Jolie, Michael Douglas and the other top film stars, we will be able to provide adequate incomes for the scores of Hollywood neophytes with SAG cards. Better yet, let's abscond with just 1% of the studios profits - these young men and women who dream of making it through Hollywoods' narrowest door won't have to work overnight at Starbucks and walk dogs in between auditions. Doesn't anybody understand that Hollywood has abused these low level actors long enough? Working for scale just doesn't cut it when you dream of stepping onto a soundstage and under the lights. It is simply not fair that the big wigs drive fancy cars and shoot around the world in G5s while supping on Caviar and Foie Gras. I say enough of the madness...revenue sharing for all!!!(bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha and evil music crescendo - fade to black)

Yes, but don't forget Star Trek III.

I am certainly no political scientist, so I don't what "true" socialism is...however, it seems to me that the NFL is a pretty socialist league. It has a "hard" salary cap, no guaranteed contracts, extensive revenue sharing, "hard" minimum player's salary, virtually no local TV revenue exclusive to one team, etc.

I know its not "pure" socialism (i.e. players can still be "free agents" and let the market dicate how much money they can get) however it has a lot of socialism in it structure.

And, on top of it all, the NFL was recently rated the most valuable league in the world (passing the English Premiere League) by Forbes or Fortune or some business journal (I forget which one).

Most of the journalists I read and/or listen to (Boston Globe, SI, ESPN, Washington Post...on a regular basis) agree that the NFL right now is by FAR the most successful league in the country in a business sense.

How are NFL officials trained, selected, and paid?

I anticipated this post. My (limited) understanding is they invite whom they have deemed as being top college officials to try-out with the NFL. Those who are hired for the first time are given a two-year probation period. If they don't make it they're cut. I think I once read that the NFL has a 10-percent annual turnover rate with its on-field officiating staff.

With the officials working one-game a week, they are classified as "part-time". According to my on-line research, prior to the 2001 season, a five-year veteran made $27,000+ (remember they are paid per game). During 2001 they had a labor strife with the NFL. According to the archived news story I found on-line, the strife was settled with a new deal that said all salaries would rise 100% by the sixth year of the deal (2006). So, if that's true (I haven't seen the deal...only the news story reporting it) a five-year veteran this up-coming season would be paid $54,000 (to work 16 games, doesn't include post-season).

Thus, in 2006 a five-year veteran gets $54,000/16= $3,375. Plus they get expense money. 20-year veterans are well above this amount.

Since the NFL has no minor leagues, I guess one could consider Division 1-A football the equivalent of "AAA" baseball. Though I have absolutely no idea how much a Division I-A football official makes, I'm willing to bet its much higher than a "AAA" umpire on a per game basis.

(This is speculation...but I bet a BCS conference referee makes much more than $500 per game. (In fact I found on-line that BCS bowl officials in 2004 got paid $1,400). So I'm reasonably certain they make more than $500 per game during the regular season. Just speculating...but if they worked 4 Saturdays a month at $750/game (plus expenses) that's $3,000. $3,000 for four games in a month vs. $3,000 for 30 games in a month for a veteran in AA.)

Frankly, I think comparing baseball umpires to NFL officials is like comparing Apples to Oranges for a lot of reasons. Obviously, one thing they do have in common is that both an NFL official and a MiLB umpire can be released a lot more easily than an MLB umpire.

I only raised the NFL in my prior post to suggest that not all socialist systems end up in failure...that the NFL itself as a league has benefitted tremendously from such a system. I did not raise the NFL to try and draw a comparison between MLB and/or MiLB umpires and NFL officials.

Socialism
 

An "economic, social and political doctrine which expresses the struggle for the equal distribution of wealth by eliminating private property and the exploitative ruling class. In practice, such a distribution of wealth is achieved by social ownership of the means of production, exchange and diffusion.

or

Economic system centered on the belief that the means of production (such as land) should be collectively owned and that market exchange should be replaced by collectively controlled distribution based on social needs.

or

A leftist political ideology that emphasizes the principle of equality and usually prescribes a large role for government to intervene in society and the economy via taxation, regulation, redistribution, and public ownership.

If you replace the word "government" with "NFL" it fits pretty well. The League intervenes heavily in its "society" (i.e. the 32 franchises) with heavy regulation (salary caps; minimum player salaries); redistribution (revenue sharing); taxation (rich teams are "taxed" on their local revenue streams) and public ownership (i.e. the League as a whole owns the right to negotiate virtually all TV coverage of the league...other than some pre-season games. Hell the League now owns its own TV network...and is there any doubt that in 15 years the NFL network will replace ESPN as its major cable broadcaster? The league even has an interest in a large number of stadiums used by NFL Teams since the LEAGUE financed or helped to finance their construction).

And as I said...the NFL, with the exception of a little labor hiccup this off-season (which was resolved without a labor stoppage) just keeps humming along.

The NFL has a commissioner with a set of big, brass ones. Even in his lame duck year he is secure in his control of the league.

Since the NFL doesn't have a Minor League system for training the next generation of officials, it is really ludicrous to compare the two.

I still can't believe that anyone would think that revenue sharing from MLB for the MiLB officials was a prudent (let alone possible) idea. At least I am not alone in my astonishment.

Ever heard of Arena Football League? Ever heard of the World Football League? You are right once again, the NFL uses no league to train and evaluate officials. :rolleyes:

Peace

Can you be hired to work in one of those leagues straight out of school?

I know of a couple guys who went to professional baseball school straight out of college and had only umpired a handful of local rec games prior. They were hired to work Instructional Leagues shortly after. Can that happen in football?

Viagra...;)

As usual, you do not know what the hell you are talking about.
 

There is no such thing as "pro school" in football or any other sport. You go to camps, get recommended and you might get a shot at another level (college or pro). Usually those that want to work college or pro have to apply directly to the conference or pro leagues and based on their history they might be given a shot. Actually the NFL does have a "scouting program" where an official can be seen at a game (they claim any level) and brought into their training program and given a shot at both Arena Leagues and the World Football League as a way to possibly promote those officials to the NFL some day. This is a fairly new program and I do not know of anyone that has achieved directly from the "scouting program" that was implemented a few years ago. If the NFL sees you as a candidate, they usually work some World League seasons before they get a full time job.

BTW, the officials that work those leagues "minor" football leagues get paid a lot more money for fewer game than those that work Minor League Baseball. The football officials get to go home and get more benefits than guys working Minor League Baseball.

Peace

The NFL uses the two Arena leagues and NFL Europe as training grounds. I believe no official has gone straight from college ball to the NFL in at least the last five or six years.

That is not entirely true. There were two guys in my association that got to the NFL directly from the Big Ten in the past 4 years or so. Remember these leagues play football in the normal off-season. They can be active D1 officials and still work NFL Europe or Arena Ball at the same time. Usually an NFL prospect is going to work both for a couple of years if they are being seriously considered. There is no magic formula to getting hired by the NFL. I just know the two guys I know never stopped working D1 ball until they got hired by the NFL. Also many Arena League officials are current D1 officials. There are many that are in my association that currently work both D1 in the fall and Arena League in the spring and summer. The current assignor for the Arena League belongs to my association and is a current Big Ten crew chief.

Peace

If they worked Arena or NFL Europe prior to going to the NFL, then what I said IS true, regardless if they also worked D-1 at the same time. According to an NLF official who belongs to our association, the no one is going straight from college to the NFL. They are all working in the Arena and/or NLF Europe leagues first. The current set up treats the two Arena leagues like A and AA minors and NFL Europe like AAA minors.

That is why I made the comment, "Not entirely true." Some people might have taken your comments and assumed that they had to stop working D1 ball while working at NFL Europe. I just wanted to make it clear that unlike baseball, you do not have to make a decision to work only pro ball to get to the top level. Other than that we are in complete agreement.

Peace

Money money money (Pink Floyd, Abba, etc)
 

Ok, a Triple-A umpire gets 15k per year to work the season. If the Triple A guy works 162 games a year, that works out to $10.28 per scheduled inning.

I get $95 to do a HS doubleheader- two seven inning games. That's $6.79 per scheduled inning. Generally speaking, I am not expected to raise my family on that.

I wonder what the average DI umpire gets per inning?

Strikes and outs!

Once again, you see my name and jump in with both feet - well before you realize how deep you will sink!

Read your first sentence again. Now read my question again.

I distictly asked if the NFL hires straight out of school. I know exactly what that means, but you obviously don't. The point I was trying to make is that you can't compare the two systems. No other sport has the same training structure for players and officials. I even gave an example of a guy that didn't work high school ball before Evans' camp. He was hired staright out of it. How often does that happen in the NFL.

You never cease to amaze, Rut. This topic has been covered ad nauseum and you continue to insist on looking like a buffoon. You are like the first grader at a Physicist's convention. Your opinion becomes moot when you don't even understand the question. Now, go to the back of the class and wait for us to call on you.

Actually Windbag, you would be wrong once again. I have let you rant and rant and rant and I did not even respond to any of your so-called in the know posts. You say the same thing over and over again. You are boring to deal with because as always you run your mouth but have no integrity to back it up. Where I come from, people say things to your face if they have a problem with you. They do not say one thing behind your back and tell a different story when they have the chance. I was not responding about you. I was responding because you were talking about something I have direct knowledge about and you were out of your league.

There is no pro school in football. There is no such animal. It does not exist. But the NFL does train and evaluate officials in the leagues they own and market (which I already stated). As usually you keep talking about something that does not exist and is not relevant to this discussion. This is why I responded because you do not know what you are talking about and someone might actually think there is a “pro school” for football and there clearly is not.

You can call me all the names you like. You can accuse me of all kinds of things. The reality is everything you say about me the opposite takes place. So you can call me a buffoon, but I have accomplished just about everything you claim I would not or could not accomplish. And as usual you still sit behind the computer screen and hide like a little b@t@h.

Peace

[Quote=Nutledge]There is no pro school in football. There is no such animal. It does not exist.Yes, you finally get it...that's what I've been saying all along. Stop twisting the facts.

But the NFL does train and evaluate officials in the leagues they own and market (which I already stated). As usually you keep talking about something that does not exist and is not relevant to this discussion. No, that is your job. Everyone else knows that you do it really well.

This is why I responded because you do not know what you are talking about and someone might actually think there is a “pro school” for football and there clearly is not. No, you responded to me because you couldn't understand the point and can't wait to try to correct me. Unfortunately for you, you didn't read the question and continue to insist that I was incorrect. Go back and read (or have someone read it to you) and you'll find that the NFL is in no way, shape or form close to MLB when it comes to recruiting, training and maintaining the next generation of officials.

I swear to God, you see my name and get in a lather. It is not flattering that you have a hardon for me. You are really embarrassing and should consider a nom de net. That and some Lithium might help your cause. Good night!

Rut,

Windy did not call you any names. He said you were "like" a buffoon, and "like" a first-grader. These are similes, not names that you were called.

simile:

n : a figure of speech that expresses a resemblance between things of different kinds (usually formed with `like' or `as').

Steve,

I was not talking to you. :rolleyes:

Peace

Between $18 and $50 per scheduled inning. I am at $25 per this weekend.

Got to include benefits
 

If you're talking compensation you have to include benefits.

What does the per inning number come out to if you include the extras that the A/AA/AAA guys get:

1. Mileage
2. Housing (hotels)
3. 12 mos. health insurance
4. " dental "
5. " vision???"

Do they get anything else? (employer provided uniforms or equipment, etc.)

When you talk about per inning cost you have to cost out all the things that are involved, you can just compare salary. Benefits typically run 25-30% of salary but it may be higher here because the umpires work a short time and the benefits run year round.

Well lets see. The AMLU guys do get insurance, you are right. But just for the sake of argument, lets look a little closer.

Insurance is approx. $200/month. If they work 180 games, as most do, that is an additional $13/day per day worked.

As for hotel and stuff, I am not convinced that counts. While they are away MiLB doesn't pay for the home that their families live in. Granted, some don't have wives and kids, but this still doesn't hold water. Besides, most clubs comp out the rooms for the umpires with advertisements in the outfield.

Mileage reimbursement...seriously, do I even have to explain this with the current gas rates? This doesn't even take into account the depreciation of the umpires personal vehicles.

Uniforms are free to PBUC and the umpires pay for their own equipment. Let me say that again...uniforms cost PBUC nothing, but the umpires must buy their own facemasks and other incidentals every year.

All in all, I think it is safe to say that a D1 umpire makes out a lot better.


There are a lot of other things that people don't take into account. But consider this. As a former MiLB umpire, my Grandmother passed away one summer while I was traveling. Since it wasn't my immediate family per se, I was permitted to fly home the day of the wake, stay for the funeral, and was expected on the field the very next night. And to the boys and girls keeping score, I paid for the airplane ticket and my league (The Southern League) did not pay me for the days I missed. I am not talking about per diem here, I am talking about my salary. It was docked. Anyone know how expensive it is to buy a ticket on 2 days notice where you fly back in 4 days. Needless to say, I just about broke even for that month in the game.

I know I am not going to convince everyone to see things my way. But in the very least I would just like to share with you some situations that may shed some light on the fact that the AMLU guys needed to stand up for themselves. It is not about chasing a dream and being greedy. It is about being realistic in the goals and evaluating their performance. Baseball may be big and bad, but these guys are trying to make it a little better and trying to keep their heads above the financial water. They are sinking right now. They are sinking because they have people pulling them under the water every day on every minor league field. Then you come home and you read some of these posts. These people draw conclusions that are totally unfounded. Just know that the minor league umpires are not bad people. They had a scab gallery. Well they took it down. They want to get on that field very badly. The few guys I still know in the game are hungry for game action. But at this point when you are told you are worth an additional $100 a month and $2 a day with the costs in this country...give me a break. I don't smoke, but I am going to guess that a pack of cigarettes cost approximately half of what it costs today from 2000. Everything is more expensive. Baseball may have all the power and money...but it doesn't make what they are doing right.

$200 per month for insurance? That seems cheap to me. There are many people out there that have no insurance.

Sure it counts if it doesn't cost the umpire anything. It doesn't matter how much (or little) the employer pays for the room, it's how much does it cost the umpire. I do not know of many companies that pay for the home that their employees familes live in...that's what you use your pay check for.

Care to guess how many people drive long distances to work and don't receive a penny for mileage?

Free to the umpire is still free and still a benifit, no matter what it cost the PBUC. I do not buy suits or other clothes for my employees to wear.

If you are expecting to make a career out of the minor leagues then maybe you should work D1.

The money, time and sacrafice of working A/AA/AAA ball is an investment. There is no guarantee that it will ever pay dividends. I grow weary of hearing about the great sacrafices these guys are making......BS. They know (knew) how difficult the road ahead of them was (or should have). They know (knew) that few of them will ever make it to MLB. The dream of making it to MLB drove them to make the choices they have made.....

NO NO NO NO NO FRINGE Benefits
 

-----------------------------------
1. Mileage, 2. Housing (hotels), 3. 12 mos. health insurance, 4. " dental " and 5. " vision???"

Wrong Idea: These are not compensation benefits (vacation, paid-time off, sick leave), extras (company car, clothing or equipment freebies), or anything else (signed autographs, dinners with future Hall of Famers). What fringe benefits are provided by MiLB? Probably NONE.

These are additional costs of doing BUSINESS and as such these costs are past on to the EMPLOYER who receives significant discounts and tax savings on group insurance and travel accomodations. PBUC's insurance policy is probably on the same "rider" as all other minor league players and officials. As cost of doing business, PBUC can pre-arrange and pay these expenses directly to vendors (La Quinta, Avis, Health HMO's) at significant savings.

If the working UMP paid for these so-called benefits out of his pocket, then he would have to subtract them from his salary. SAlary would then come out to probably $THOUSANDS LESS THAN ZERO.

Right Idea: SAlary includes fee for services provided over any ordinary time period (yearly, monthly, etc.) or and real time job related period (season, game, inning, out, etc.).

REIMBURSEMENT for related expenses associated with employment travel requirements include MILAGE and PER DIEM. This money should OFFSET the cost employees must pay directly associated with travel requirements. The employee would have to legally report any additional income made from this participation or be subject to termination and IRS audit.

Uniforms are free to PBUC and the umpires pay for their own equipment. Let me say that again...uniforms cost PBUC nothing, but the umpires must buy their own facemasks and other incidentals every year.

That's is a surprise to me...back in my day, I recieved almost all of my gear free. Buck Parsons at +POS was only too happy to have us sporting the top gear. I'm sure I helped him sell a lot of equipment whenever I worked or taught classes.

I have a couple of friends who just got out and one who finished school within the past two years. All are working games as replacements. We correspond regularly, so I posed this question to them earlier today. Did you buy all of your gear when you were working in the Minors? All of them purchased some gear on their own, but they recieved masks, CP and shin guards from various vendors gratis. Maybe what they did was a breach of code, but if Gerry Davis or Dick Honig hand you a $100 mask and tell you it is for free, you smile and say thank you.

Anyway, things may different for you. I don't claim to know it all, just some interesting tidbits every now and then.

SDS - He wasn't talking to you. (grin, chuckle, snort)

He wasn't talking to me???? Well, raise my rent!

Now when has that ever stopped me from yanking his chain?

Underpaid. Period.
 

I guess I just have my quasi-Marxist tendancies burned too deep into me. I guess I still believe in the radical notion that while it is legal for investors to organize and pool resources into corporations, it ought to be legal for those who provide the labor to organize and bargain collectively. I know. Communism.

$15,000 a year is the MAXIMUM they make. That's the guys in AAA. Yeah, they go do schools. Yeah, they go do spring ball and fall ball and clinics and and and. I would be embarrassed, if I were PBUC, if I were trying to defend what I bet works out to something like minimum wage (or below) for the guys on the field who take the most crap and do their professional best, night in and night out.

Seriously, guys, how many of us make, in our jobs, what a Triple-A guy makes? How many of us on this site who work as "part-time" or "amatuer" umpires make more than most minor league guys? I will make more than a Rookie League or Short Season A ball guy this year. It won't take much- 75 dates or so. At the end of high school season I will be more than half way there.

We can argue and we can fuss. Until we have walked the mile in the plate shoes, I think those of us who cast derision on the minor league blues are being awfully judgmental and in the wrong way.

Strikes and outs!

Who is forcing them to work minor league ball? Why do they work minor league ball?

Okay, just in the interest of facts: According to PBUC, AAA minor league umpires make Class AAA: $2,500-3,400 per month for five month season. That would equal $12,500 to $17,000 per season, not per year.

Also, again, according to PBUC, "Salaries may vary from the above ranges due to service time or other special circumstances. Umpires receive a promotion premium in the form of increased pay when promoted to Class AA, and another promotion premium when promoted to Class AAA." This means that some AAA umpires make more than the $17,000 listed above, for a five month season.

$3,400 per month is more than many school teachers make.

I certainly support raises for minor league umpires. They deserve them. I support raises for school teachers, too. They also deserve them. I have no quibble with the ends. I continue to believe the umpires were misled about the means.

3400 a month would be nice wouldn't it? Unfortunately, most of the umpires don't get to that max. If you work 8 years of milb, you make around 2600/month, give or take a hundred or two. If you aren't starting to get interest at the major league level by then, your career is probably over. So, the only guys who hit that max are normally the guys filling in in the bigs. The guys who don't really need it.

[QUOTE=GarthB]Okay, just in the interest of facts: According to PBUC, AAA minor league umpires make Class AAA: $2,500-3,400 per month for five month season. That would equal $12,500 to $17,000 per season, not per year.

Also, again, according to PBUC, "Salaries may vary from the above ranges due to service time or other special circumstances. Umpires receive a promotion premium in the form of increased pay when promoted to Class AA, and another promotion premium when promoted to Class AAA." This means that some AAA umpires make more than the $17,000 listed above, for a five month season.

$3,400 per month is more than many school teachers make.

QUOTE]

School teachers are underpaid, too. The fact that they are underpaid does not justify underpaying umpires.

The press has been reporting $15k as the pay for a AAA umpire. This is the figure a friend of mine in AAA confirms. Maybe PBUC should get out in front and tell people exactly how generous- oh wait a minute . . . then they'd have to talk about the entire embarrasing pay scale.

Who "forces" them to work minor league ball? Nobody. Who "forces" baseball to use umpires? When I was a kid, we played many a game of sandlot ball with no umpire. Does MiLB need umpires? Or can we just send the teams out there night after night and have them call their own? Honor system, fellas. The next time you go to ask for a raise from your boss, ask yourself who forces you to work there.

The one thing we haven't been talking about is the upward and downward pressure a longterm strike is likely to put on other levels of baseball. It will put upward pressure on the Majors, because if MiLB fires or "replaces" on a permanent basis all of the AMLU umps, the Majors will have no new umpires ready in the long term to replace retiring umps. In the short term, anybody they bring up as replacements during the season for vacationing or injured umpires will be (a) untrained and probably unqualified and (b) if scabs, likely to get exactly the same reception scabs got in the 1979 season of big league ball. It has already put downward pressure on college and high school umpires. I don't know about everybody else in the country. Here in Arkansas, we don't have enough umpires, period, let alone enough good umpires. When MiLB mines our top guys to come work AA games, the rest of our schedule pays the price by having umps work games they are probably not ready to work.

Strikes and outs!

Maybe everyone earning minimum wage should go on strike?


I believe that there have been umpires at all of the MiLB games this season.

When you go to ask your boss for a raise you must be prepared for two things to happen:
1. Your boss will say no
2. Your boss will say yes.

If #1, three things can happen:
a. You can accept your bosses "no" answer.
b. You can find a new job.
c. You can hang around, complaining untill your boss gets fed up and replaces you.

If #2,
a. You accept the amount offered to you and be thankful.
b. You get angry with the offer and find a new job.
c. You can hang around, complaining until your boss gets fed up and replaces you.

Do you seriously think that there aren't hundreds of former and future umpire school grads that will jump at the chance to work MiLB games if the strikers do not return? Do you really think that of all the thousands of umpires in the country that these 220 MiLB umpires are the only ones good enough to handle the job?

The MiLB umpires will still accept jobs as "fill ins" for MLB. They aren't striking all of baseball.

[QUOTE=BlueLawyer]Why is it my posts are edited in the replies and then responded to in such a way that makes it appear that I am opposed to the MiLB demands? Why is it that my statements: "I certainly support raises for minor league umpires. They deserve them. I support raises for school teachers, too. They also deserve them. I have no quibble with the ends. I continue to believe the umpires were misled about the means." never appear in replies and are ignored? Why is it some posters need to paint this issue as either one is "for" or "against" the MiLB umpires?

Must we agree 100% with union leadership and march in lockstop to be regarded as supportive of the members? is there no room for difference of opinon within the union? If so, the recent 2-1 vote against what the leadership called a good deal must represent heresy.

I have several friends in the MiLB. My son is working hard to join them. I understand their plight and I believe they are deserving of what they are asking for. But I have the right to also believe their leadership could be better.

Two Posts
 

Garth:

I do not think you have to agree or disagree totally with the union. And I will tell you and agree with you that the union has made mistakes. Many of those mistakes are documented on this website. We share common ground there. But the other side is just as irrational, vis the post immediately following yours. Fact: MiLB/PBUC did not negotiate all winter- their last response, in October of '05, was "$100 per month raise and $1 more per diem. Take it or leave it." AMLU tried, according to those I know, to negotiate and were ignored until they voted to strike. Did AMLU wait too long? You bet. Did their leadership underestimate the resolve of PBUC? You bet. Did the AMLU leadership make numerous other tactical/strategic errors? Yep. We agree.

Just:

Thanks for making my point for me. Minimum wage workers do strike, all the time- they quit. Ask anybody in the fast food/custodial/other traditionally minimum wage fields (or study Department of Labor stats) how long the average worker lasts in that field. Then, of course, you ignore the fact that the professional umpire-to-be is considerably more skilled than the average minimum wage worker, and has invested much more of himself/herself in terms of personal finances and opportunity costs than the same minimum wage Joe or Jane. They are in it for a shot at Major League glory, sure. But why should we endorse penalizing most of them at poverty-level (or slightly above) wages for that vanity? Should MiLB umpires ignore the fact that most of us who work even mid-level amatuer ball make as much or more than they do? Should MiLB umpires not be allowed to say "A lower-middle class, close to living wage is all I want while I try to make it to the big time"?

Does Major League Baseball want the annual fruitbasket turnover in the minors that Just apparently says is JUST fine with him? Does anybody, even you, Just, think that firing an entire class of MiLB umpires is good for the game? Do you really think that those non-AMLU guys who get a contract this year have a shot at the Majors? Do you really think they will get renewed once either a new class of Wendelstedt/Evans guys comes through or PBUC and AMLU finally get it right? If you do, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Just, does the fact that more people are apparently waiting in the wings to be underpaid by PBUC make it ok for them to underpay AMLU?

Strikes and outs!

Garth,

Whenever a mediator approves a deal the union leadership must endorse it to the members & send it to a vote. It's just the way the system works.

All MiLB needs to do is approve a small pay raise & livable per-diem. The AMLU understands they are never going to be paid according to their true value. IMO the #1 issue is not having sufficient per-diem & having to pull from a salary 10+ years behind just to meet basic living expenses.

The pressure is really starting to mount against MiLB from the farm directors & MLB. Will it help - who knows? My view of the situation is that MilB is going to try & hold firm.

At some point either MLB is going to mandate they settle or will pony up the $$ to make it happen (Which I think is really what MiLB is holding out for. Why pay when they think someone else will).

It's similar to the MLB mandate a few years ago. Improve the ballparks or we will stop funding you and start our own teams. Amazing what happens when you tell someone fix it or we take away the $$$.

I made your point? No, like you said "They quit" and maybe that's what the MiLB umpires should do if they can't handle how things are done. Or have they already quit? So you say strike = quit?

As I have said many times, I think that a person has the right to earn as much as they can. But I have little compassion, wait make that no compassion, for a man (or woman) who willingly takes a position that they know pays low wages then complains about it. If you can't handle the low pay while you're learning your trade then don't take the job. It's like a doctor. They go to school for what 20 years (or more). Then they graduate from medical school and are now doctors but they still have to go through a resident program. While they are in this program (4, 6 or more years) they are doing doctors work but for MUCH less money. They work long and very hard hours. Is that fair? Maybe not, but that's the way it is.

Dispite what you and others may think being a MiLB umpire does not rank up there with things like teachers, doctors, nurses, police, military and other positions that really count and make a difference in peoples lives. They can and will be easily replaced...what they do is not rocket science.

Since you didn't ask me what I think, I'll explain it to you.

No, being an umpire does not rank up there with the professions you listed (the only one of which, by the way, that I can tell gets paid what is worth is a doctor).

Your statement that it is "not rocket science" is true but incomplete. I am amazed that anyone who officiates baseball would make that kind of statment. It's not turning burgers, either. Have you ever umpired a baseball game before? That is not meant to be flip- if anybody could do it, anybody would. Tell me you have never been on the field with some jackass fan behind you yelling about your strike zone or your lack of rules knowledge and you thought to yourself, "If it's so easy, smart guy, get out here and do it."

This is my opinion and it is worth what you are about to pay for it. I have umpired baseball and refereed basketball. Basketball is naturally more physically demanding, but in terms of judgment, rules knowledge and situations, there is nothing harder to officiate than baseball. You are expected to get the routine right 100% of the time, react to the arcane and weird correctly, and at the same time listen to grown men behave like little boys and little boys sometimes try to behave like grown men- while all the time avoiding throwing them out until there is no other option.

It amazes me constantly that we send guys who make $15k a year out to the ballpark to "control" minor league guys (who by the way, all want the same thing the umpires want- to get to the Majors), some of whom are 20-year-old millionares.

There is some justification in the idea that they knew what they were getting into. Does that mean that once they are in, they have no right to try to make things better? There is more justification in the idea that it is time to make it something close to right for themselves and future umpires.

Strikes and outs!

Having belonged to the musicians union, a peace officers union, a union for emergency workers (emergency dispatch) and the teachers union, and having been a shop steward twice, I am familiar with the process.

They had to forward it to their membership for a vote. They did not, as the AMLU leadership did, have to issue a release saying how happy they were with the deal and now that they have workable agreement they look forward to getting the members back on the field. They could have, as most unions involve with mediation do, simply said, "This is the result of the recent mediation and we are forwarding to our membership for a vote."

I have umpired baseball/football for more than 20 years. I never intended for either one to be more than what they are today, a hobby! I chose to spend my time building a career outside of baseball/football. My career path took me to college for a degree in engineering and in business (MBA). Ending in the long and difficult road of building a successful business.

Just because a kid has the talent to earn millions playing the game doesn't mean that the MiLB umpires automatically have the right to make hundreds of thousands of dollars. The fans come out to see the players....and most don't give two-cents about the umpires...no comparison to their value can be made.

Finally, I hope that the MiLB umpires convince MiLB that they are worth whatever they want to earn. I doubt that it will happen but if it does I'll still go watch the games no matter how much the ticket cost increases to pay their salaries:)

I think at some point we need to stop comparing one type of job to another. You cannot compare a professional umpire to a teacher. Hell we cannot even compare a college professor to an elementary school teacher with each other and pay structures and issues related to those levels. This issue is about what MiLB can play and what they are not willing to pay. This is a system that is supposed to train umpires to one day work at the Majors. I do not think anyone wants a bunch of guys that only experience is working a local league and one or two teams in a very small area. The union guys have made a commitment to work this level and to take a chance on maybe getting a shot at the "show." These replacement umpires will likely never be considered for anything but working games in place of union members. You see they did not just call up anyone to cover the MLB Umpires when those guys went on vacation. They hired guys that have training and years of pro ball experience.

I can have a game off working baseball. I cannot have a game off working a basketball game. And part of what makes basketball hard is the fact you have to hustle to get into position all the time. You do not have to work that hard to get into position working a baseball game. Even in a two man game during baseball, all I have to do is take a couple of steps and I can see the play clearly. Also in basketball I do not know of any kind of play being called "routine." Players in baseball can make us look great if they make plays or very bad if they do not make plays. As a baseball umpire I do not control the pace of the game or the style of play nearly the same way a basketball official does when working a regular game. Also this is irrelevant to this discussion of what the union should get. Basketball officials at the same level can make more money in a shorter period of time than the current Minor League system for working 5 months.

Peace

Does anyone else want to point out that when the MLB umpires went out on strike, a couple of replacements were hired to work the Show? If I point it out it will be "WWTB is picking on me again." ;)

I agree with almost everything you said, Rut . . . but-

Tell me that baseball is not more rules intensive than basketball, and I will disagree respectfully with you. The fact that baseball has a whole lot of standing around is precisely what makes it so hard to officiate. It's very hard , at least for me, to keep concentration up for 120 minutes of nothing special only to have a game-deciding, n*t cutting call at first in the bottom of the ninth. Have an off game in baseball, and you MIGHT be able to hide it. But if you are having an off game and the one "o-my-deity" call comes to you, you will be exposed.

And the point I was making in response to Just, who said it's "not rocket science." He was, in my judgment, disparaging the whole profession. Yes, for me, it's part time, but it is a profession. I don't know if he is a true demigod of baseball umpiring or just has a patholgical animosity toward AMLU. I don't care. They are professional, work hard and deserve better than to be treated the way PBUC is treating them.

Strikes and outs!

What the hell did you do with Just? Get off his computer!

Strikes and outs!

Have you ever worked a college basketball game? Have you ever worked a game under NBA rules? If you had you might change your mind. To me it is not about how hard the rules. Learning the rules comes with time and experience on the field and court. It is about the amount of decisions you have to make when you blow the whistle and not blow the whistle. I can eliminate an entire section of the game of baseball or rules by just knowing the situation with how many runners are on base and just following the ball. You cannot do that in a basketball game.

Well the fact that I am standing is easy for me. I agree it can be hard to concentrate, but that is not that hard in my opinion. Also in basketball it is not a lot can happen in a very short period of time. You have to be on top of everything where in baseball nothing will be taking place for many minutes. For me working a baseball (especially on the bases) is a piece of cake. Also when I have talked to other officials that work multiple sports, not many put baseball as the hardest sport. I have been working football, basketball and baseball for the same amount of time. Baseball for me is by far the easiest and has been the easiest to move up and achieve in. Out of the 3 I did baseball last and I was surprised how easy it was to do and understand from the very beginning. I just read a couple of books and I had a very good understanding of what I need to do as an umpire. I have since changed some things like plate stances and some philosophies, but these are things that never were extremely difficult to understand and grasp.

We need to put this in perspective. Umpiring or any officiating is not rocket science. Not everyone can umpire/officiate effectively or very well either. But to make it seem like you need the same level of training to become a teacher or many other professions is not accurate either. Just look at most that decide to work at the pro level. Umpires do not have the same level of education or the same years of training to get to that point. Also that does not mean anyone can role out of bed and umpire at any level by any means. It also does not take a vast education to become a good ball player. It was a lot harder to get my college degree than it ever has been to become a successful umpire or official. All of this is a completely separate issue to what the union is doing and why they are striking. How hard it is to umpire and why the union wants to be paid more are not even in the same ballpark if you ask me. If anything we need to stop comparing our “day jobs” to this situation. They have nothing to do with each other and even the why people decide to umpire pro ball has nothing to do with how they come to a similar conclusion to work in other professions. These comparisons are just silly if you ask me and I can tell you that if you were required to travel at the same rate, most would be compensated enough to cover those expenses. This is an industry issue, not an issue for all unions and all pay scales across the economic board.

Peace

I must have had a compassionate (weak) moment.....don't let my competitors know :D


BlueLawyer:

My statement was not disparaging to the whole profession of umpiring. It was a statement of fact! Look, if you want to give great importance to the profession of umpiring MiLB then by all means have at it. I believe that in comparison to some of the more highly technical professions umpiring just isn't on the same scale.

Now here's a totally absurd comparison for you.... Take a skilled surgeon and give him, let's say, 2 weeks umpiring training and then put them on the field to call a game. Then lets take a skilled umpire (from MLB), train him for two weeks to perform a heart bypass and then put them in the 'sterile' field of the OR. How do you think things would turn out? My bet is that the baseball game would survive better than the heart bypass patient. See, I told you it was absurd.

One more totally absurd comparison for...Take a man flipping burgers and give him, let's say, 1 hour of umpiring training, and then put him on the field to call a game. Then lets take a skilled umpire (from MiLB), train him for 1 hour to perform "burger flipping" and then put him in front of the McDonald's grill. How do you think things would turn out? My bet is that the baseball game would be in a lot more trouble than the McDonald's consumers. That is why MiLB umpires should be getting paid a livable salary (or getting paid more than just above minimum wage)...because they have a unique skill. While it is a skill not on the level of a doctor (or lawyer :) ), it is a skill that many people could never hope to attain. My comparison too was absurd.

Ah . . . the lawyer
 

Ask any doctor (my aunt comes to mind) you happen to meet, he/she will tell you- not much perserverence or skill is required to become a lawyer. We often have that conversation over a bottle of wine. Fortunately for me, I am trained in argument.:)

Strikes and outs!

I have often said that doctors often can give one life, but lawyers make that life worth living. (Yes, I'm proud of my profession and the accomplishments of its members throughout our nation's history).

[QUOTE=lawump]One more totally absurd comparison for...Take a man flipping burgers and give him, let's say, 1 hour of umpiring training, and then put him on the field to call a game. Then lets take a skilled umpire (from MiLB), train him for 1 hour to perform "burger flipping" and then put him in front of the McDonald's grill. How do you think things would turn out? My bet is that the baseball game would be in a lot more trouble than the McDonald's consumers. That is why MiLB umpires should be getting paid a livable salary (or getting paid more than just above minimum wage)...because they have a unique skill. While it is a skill not on the level of a doctor (or lawyer :) ), it is a skill that many people could never hope to attain. My comparison too was absurd.[/QUOTE

So how much do you feel that these highly skilled MiLB umpires should be paid for their valuable service to all of mankind?

Follow on question:
How do convince the people that really matter, MiLB, that they are worth the extra money? Obviously the strike hasn't worked too well.

[/QUOTE So how much do you feel that these highly skilled MiLB umpires should be paid for their valuable service to all of mankind?

Follow on question:
How do convince the people that really matter, MiLB, that they are worth the extra money? Obviously the strike hasn't worked too well.[/QUOTE]

I don't have a rational answer to the first question, and I don't care to try to guess. I have an emotional answer, and I don't care to post it because it's emotional. I can't tell you what firemen, cops, soldiers, teachers, nurses, etc. are worth either. The market is dynamic.

I disagree with the premise of the second question- they are a month into the strike. Despite what our instant-gratification society teaches us, some things take time. The strike may be one of those situations.

Strikes and outs!

I'm proud to be a lawyer, too. Pleasure to meet a fellow barrister who also umpires online. There are more of us than you might think. Ed Hochuli is a lawyer in Phoenix, as I understand it.

Strikes and outs!

Supply and Demand
 

While it does matter how much training one has to receive in order to do a job, the laws of supply and demand still prevail. If there are many people available and willing to do a job, the job won't pay well. If the skills required to do a job are in short supply, the market will pay a premium for those skills.

AFAIK, the two umpire schools are filled to capacity each year. There is no shortage of umpires. Umpires are all too willing to make sacrifices for the a shot at "the show".

Until the quality of available umpires is poor enough to warrant a monetary incentive to ensure higher quality, the wages aren't likely to change significantly.

This fact disturbs more than a few :D


;)

Question #2 first:

I don't agree with your assumption that the strike hasn't worked too well. We live in such a (what I call) "instant" society. We want everything and we want it now. News is regularly broadcast "instantly" with minimal filtering by producers/editors. We eat "instant" meals, so that we can have more time at work. Etc.

I think this culture leads some to conclude that because the strike wasn't resolved in a week or two that it "hasn't worked too well."

I'll stand by what I have posted all along: (1) This strike would not be short (or if it was short, the AMLU would likely be on the short end of the stick). (2) And that AMLU would "win" significant concessions if the strike lasted long.

What did I base this on? (1) Many previous umpire strikes (MLB umpires) have not been short. (2) The MLB umpires "won" every strike they ever went on.

(And for the record: 1999 was not a strike. They were legally barred from striking...they signed their right to strike away in the CBA...so they "quit" instead. Why did they do this suicidal move? In my opinion, they did this because their lawyer had an ego the size of Texas. Why did he have a large ego? Because he had been kicking MLB around for two decades. Everyone remembers the 1999 disaster and many think the AMLU is following this same path. Few, however, remember that MLB umps went from making $10 to $30k in 1979 to where they are now ($100k to $350k) because of all those successful strikes).

I believe that this strike is much more similar to 1979 than 1999. That MLB strike lasted 6 full weeks. It involved picketing at stadiums, press releases and press conferences. In many ways, the umpires in 1979 were worse off than today's MiLB umpires. In 1979 many were on the verge of going on food stamps, etc. The MiLB umpires are younger and can easily get work paying more than what they make on the field. (Many have kept their off-season jobs).

So what happened in 1979? Eventually the umpiring product on the field caused others in baseball to put pressure on the Leagues to settle and get the "regular guys" back on the field. It took awhile for the press to start paying attention...but they did. Did some of the "replacements" do an adequate job on the field. Sure...many had (or are in the middle of) long MLB careers.

So what's going on in 2006? Are some "replacements" doing an adequate job? Sure. Are some over-their-heads at this level. Many are. Are more and more stories about the umpiring situation being reported? In my opinion, yes. (I use Yahoo every day to search for any news story containing the word "umpire"). Has the majority of editorials (and I admit their is not a ton) been pro-AMLU? I would say the vast majority that I have read have been. Does their appear to be more and more stories coming out about managers, GM's and minor league directors being upset about the replacement umps? Yes, (again based upon my Yahoo search), whether the criticism is justified or not.

Do I think incidents like the Young incident at Pawtucket and the Southern League forfeit have more and more minor league people talking about the situation? Yes. (For the record, IMHO, the Young incident would have happened with or without the AMLU guys working the game. However, I don't share the same opinion about the forfeit.)

I personally think the strike is going well, and the AMLU is just beginning to get some momentum. I personally thought it would take longer than the 6-week MLB strike because it would take the AMLU longer to get the media to pay attention because this involves MiLB rather than MLB.

So, to conclude, I disagree with your assessment of the current strike's success.

Of course, the final judgment as to the success of the strike will be when a CBA is signed.

As to your first question...My first job after leaving the minor leagues (and before going to law school) was as a Sports Information Director at an NCAA Division 2 school. I made $30k. I provided as much of a service to society as an MiLB umpire does. That salary (combined with my wife's slightly less salary at that time) allowed me to pay my bills and buy my first (albeit modest) house. In this position I had minimal duties from mid-may to mid-August (not quite as long of an "off-season" as AMLU members).

I think that salary (which is double a "AAA") salary is justifiable. For the record, that is what I think they should make...not what I'm predicting they will make after this strike. I don't want someone coming back and posting a month down the road that I claimed that a "AAA" ump would make $30k after the strike. I just think (1) that is what they should make IMHO (2) MiLB and MLB have both seen record growth over the last six years and as a result there is more than enough money to easily fund this salary level.

You have asked me what I think they should make, and that is my answer.

Okay, $30k for AAA sounds fair to me.....where do I vote? :D

How much should MiLB pay?
 

[/QUOTE]
So how much do you feel that these highly skilled MiLB umpires should be paid for their valuable service to all of mankind?

Follow on question:
How do convince the people that really matter, MiLB, that they are worth the extra money? Obviously the strike hasn't worked too well.[/QUOTE]

Question Number 1 has already been explained in the thread "Any Comments" started by JIGGY. My imaginary analysis, using some info provided in the thread "How much do you get paid?" originally posted by Stripes1950, attempts to rationally answer Question Number 1 by proposing a very viable payscale for MiLB umpires. This analysis concluded that 9 innings of pro ball deserves at least the same amount of money or more than 7 innings of high school ball and more money than 9 innings of amateaur baseball. It should also be noted that an NCAA 3-game series pays substantially higher than this proposed minor league pay scale.

I was surprised to learn that Single A and Double A umpires were only paid $66 and $75 per 9 inning game. One member stated that he was only asking for a new contract which paid $86 per game. Remember, no pay raises have been granted over the last 10 years. My fantasy proposal now called for higher pay scales to be established over the next 6 years, at the very minimum $90 or BUST.

Rookie and Short A BAll: $90 per game 6 years from now
Single A: $100 per game 6 years from now
Double A: $120 per game 6 years from now
Triple A: $150 per game 6 years from now

Question Number 2 is now the major sticking point. As Brian Curtain stated, the suits have the money, but they will not be talked into giving it away. The PBUC position on the table at the moment is "NO PAY RAISES." Some will argue that they did offer $500 more, but many know that was a joke to offset higher insurance premiums. I find it very interesting that PBUC is now PAYING SCABS $90 per ball game.

How do you end the STALEMATE? The federal mediator must bring PBUC and the AMLU together and mandate that they reach an agreement. The federal mediator must recognize past proposals and MEDIATE an acceptable positon for both parties. For example, I keep reading that the AMLU turned down a 12% pay raise and PBUC refuses to adopt a 15% pay raise demand. Why can't both parties reach a 1 year contract calling for a 12% pay raise this year with an additional 1% pay raise every other year? It seems simple enough.

12% my arse
 

SA,

Since you seem to enjoy working with numbers, could you see if you can figure out where the 12% comes from? Other than being conjured from thin air, I can't think of ANY way they could say there is a 12% raise being proposed.

starting salary = $1,800/month under expired CBA.
starting salary = $1,900/month in proposal.

that's about 5.3%

as you go up, the increase % decreases in proportion to the already existing salary. for example:

AA salary under expried CBA = $2,500/mo
AA salary in proposed CBA = $2,600/mo

about 4%.

actually, i think i may have figured out the 12%...

AAA salary or $3,400 goes up to $3,500...about 3%.

5.3% + 4% + 3% = 12.3%.

it would appear to me that instead of adding up these percentages and dividing by the three levels...they simply left out the division part and published the 12% figure.

check me if i'm wrong, sandy, but if i kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up and throw away the key...

12% my arse
 

SA,

Since you seem to enjoy working with numbers, could you see if you can figure out where the 12% comes from? Other than being conjured from thin air, I can't think of ANY way they could say there is a 12% raise being proposed.

$1,800 x 12% = $216, not $100
$2,500 x 12% = $300, not $100
$3,500 x 12% = $408, not $100

Don't go ape
 

I previously posted "Myth Buster" which basically states the same thing on another thread started by Your Boss, "AMLU rejects proposal." I was working with the bottom figures to try to establish where the 12% offer, which I stated never existed, came from.
--------------------------------
"Did AMLU turn down 12% RAISE? Article stated, "Minor League umpires reject 12 percent raise." It must be true.

http://oursportscentral.com/services...es/?id=3303808

Per diem OFFER increased from $25 to $27, less than 10%.
Salary OFFER increased from $10,000 to $10,500, exactly 5%.

Last I checked $3.57/$60 falls just short of 6%.

I suppose the AMLU looks pretty dumb turning their noses at a 12% RAISE that never existed. ONE SCAB I read about got a 50% RAISE. Perhaps PBUC would consider that 12% raise across the BOARD."
----------------------
One WWTB even challenged me by stating, "You say it never existed, while some pretty involved sources say otherwise. Were you at the table, like Yund and Mobley?" Hmmm, I think NOT. I have since read several other sources quoting this 12% pay raise offer. I can only ascertain that it may have existed and that nobody is talking about it.

Proof the strike is working
 

I previously posted the following info on "Friendly discussion"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Offer wasn't secret once details were made public. I agree with your SPIN on spin. Only thing I knew was 6 year term was on the table and we all know why. Things are getting better already.

MLB is asking 2-6 umps to take early retirement.
I would say the current STRIKE by AMLU members is more than partly responsible.

MLB UMPS joined their bothers on the picket line. Ex-AAA umpires are NOT returning to work for the good of the game. That means they support those who have chosen to stay and improve their living conditions.

The AA and AAA UMPS {the cream of the crop} were collectively offered a $500 pay raise. So much for PBUC's integrity in their own rating system and anyone's sense of a FAIR deal.

The Rookie and Short Season Single A minor league experience is considered on the job training, an apprenticeship, or any other term you like for keeping wages LOW for NO experience. Those 8 years in A, AA, AAA sound like grounds for making a good journeyman's salary and journeymen do make a pretty decent living.

Low level scabs are already making $30 more than the going rate. Won't be long till the regulars return for their FAIR share. Hopefull this same effect will amplify into AA and AAA. It won't be long before I get $70 for 9 innings of baseball. A couple of years ago it was $50, then last year it went up to $65. Sorry coach, I don't have any change for that $20.

Most realize that life must go on and quickly resume their PRO or non-PRO status. That doesn't mean they no longer umpire. It means they bought a house, married, have kids and finally have a LIFE.
------------------------------------------------
Does PBUC plan to replace the AMLU. How much will that plan cost? Is it worth the holdout?

$70 Challenge
 

One person asked me where I got paid $70 a game.

I still don't want to publish names and phone numbers on-line, but let me say that it is part of the largest amateaur adult baseball league in the country. It shouldn't be a secret to any NCAA VET who knows about the real $$$ games. It really isn't that hard to find either.

At the time, I didn't want to give away the details because I knew the local replacement SCABS and the out of work, unemployed AMLU umpires would all be drawn there like a sponge to water. I already know that for each UMP I help into the league, the most I will get for my effort is a well appreciated "thank you." I guess I better sharpen my skills now that the competition may rise a notch or two. We'll see who is invited back.

I believe that this strike is much more similar to 1979 than 1999. Really, didn't you just write that there wasn't a strike in 1979?

That MLB strike lasted 6 full weeks. It involved picketing at stadiums, press releases and press conferences. In many ways, the umpires in 1979 were worse off than today's MiLB umpires. In 1979 many were on the verge of going on food stamps, etc. But, the replacement umpires weren't as dedicated, skilled or equipped. The current crop of amateurs is better prepared for the game.

The MiLB umpires are younger and can easily get work paying more than what they make on the field. (Many have kept their off-season jobs). Yep, that's what some of us keep reminding them. They have a 5 MONTH JOB and want a 12 month salary. Sorry, but there are others trying to make it big someday - actors, musicians and artists that all live on the cheap because that is what their market value is. The pro schools are packed with dreamers.

So what happened in 1979? Eventually the umpiring product on the field caused others in baseball to put pressure on the Leagues to settle and get the "regular guys" back on the field. It took awhile for the press to start paying attention...but they did. Did some of the "replacements" do an adequate job on the field. Sure...many had (or are in the middle of) long MLB careers. Face it, amateur umpiring was a good ol' boy network back then. The top college umpires cherry picked everything. If a guy went to pro school, it was a big deal back home. Those replacements were good but not as prepared as some high school guys today.

So what's going on in 2006? Are some "replacements" doing an adequate job? Sure. Are some over-their-heads at this level. Many are.
That's a slightly biased assessment - 16 leagues and countless games every day...how many stories about bad umpiring?

Are more and more stories about the umpiring situation being reported? In my opinion, yes. (I use Yahoo every day to search for any news story containing the word "umpire"). That seems like a tremendous waste of time...are you out of work or just fixated?

Has the majority of editorials (and I admit their (sic) is not a ton) been pro-AMLU? I would say the vast majority that I have read have been. Did you read these is small town rags and umpire sites? Hmmmm

Does their (sic) appear to be more and more stories coming out about managers, GM's and minor league directors being upset about the replacement umps? Yes, (again based upon my Yahoo search), whether the criticism is justified or not. You are a counselor, right? Please tell me that these are not your courtroom arguments. Four weeks after the AMLU began the strike and they are still clawing for press. They have taken shots at amateurs for doing a thankless job and a few beat reporters have taken the bait. I haven't witnessed the MiLB turmoil on ESPN, MSNBC or the big 4 much. They probably don't have enough reporters looking for the 'news'.

Do I think incidents like the Young incident at Pawtucket and the Southern League forfeit have more and more minor league people talking about the situation? Yes. (For the record, IMHO, the Young incident would have happened with or without the AMLU guys working the game. However, I don't share the same opinion about the forfeit.) We do agree on Young...history shows his tendencies and he will be a marked man from here on out. The SL melee was a joke in more ways than one. The Barons skipper was quoted as saying, "There was no one in charge out there." Uh...buddy...what's your job? Aren't you supposed to control your team, so that the umpire doesn't have to dump your starting pitcher, first baseman and shortstop? Talk about not helping your cause...now I know why he's still in the Minors.

I personally think the strike is going well, and the AMLU is just beginning to get some momentum. I personally thought it would take longer than the 6-week MLB strike because it would take the AMLU longer to get the media to pay attention because this involves MiLB rather than MLB. There's that JD at work again. Most of us figured that the AMLU was p*ssing in the wind on this one. No matter how long they were out, they would look bad. So far, that's exactly what is happening.

So, to conclude, I disagree with your assessment of the current strike's success. Okay...please sit down as the prosecution rebuts...wait...you said you conclude...that means wrapped up...counselor?

Of course, the final judgment as to the success of the strike will be when a CBA is signed. Okay...are you done now? We all figured that the strike would end when a new CBA was enacted or when they wised up and formed a new union.

As to your first question...My first job after leaving the minor leagues (and before going to law school) was as a Sports Information Director at an NCAA Division 2 school. I made $30k. I provided as much of a service to society as an MiLB umpire does. Your value to society does not dictate what your salary is. Really, counselor...

That salary (combined with my wife's slightly less salary at that time) allowed me to pay my bills and buy my first (albeit modest) house. In this position I had minimal duties from mid-may to mid-August (not quite as long of an "off-season" as AMLU members). Not quite??? 3 months off versus 7??? What law school did you go to?

I think that salary (which is double a "AAA") salary is justifiable. For the record, that is what I think they should make...not what I'm predicting they will make after this strike. I don't want someone coming back and posting a month down the road that I claimed that a "AAA" ump would make $30k after the strike. I just think (1) that is what they should make IMHO (2) MiLB and MLB have both seen record growth over the last six years and as a result there is more than enough money to easily fund this salary level. Let's see a starting WUA umpire makes $80,000 for working an impossible level of baseball. He works an extra month, is scrutinized up the yingyang and travels his *** off. If the AMLU wants you to believe that the pressure between amateur ball and MiLB is night and day then so it is with MLB and MiLB. We saw what happens when you put AAA umpires in the WBC.

To the Einstein who asked where he could vote on a 30K salary for a five month job? You already did. After college, most of us had a choice to seek high salaries or live off Mom and Dad a little longer. If you had applied yourself a little, making 75K a year may have happened. ROTFLMAO

What's the metric, then?
 

I would quote, but it's frankly more work than I want to do right now.

If I understand the themes/talking points of those who think the AMLU is wrong to strike, they are, generally:

1. College/high school/other good amatuer umpires can (and are) adequately replacing the AMLU guys.

2. Baseball, overall, is no worse off for the AMLU strike.

3. Since there are hundreds if not thousands of vult errrrrr fellow qualified umpires waiting in the wings to drive to Tulsa, Bakersfield, Rockford and Des Moines, the AMLU is wrong or wrongheaded to strike.

4. $15,000 is PLENTY of money for 5 months of work. The fact that the umpires have experienced a net pay cut over the life of the contract with inflation (in particular, health care costs and gasoline) is irrelevant. Any adult can live on $20 a day eating out and maintain a non-Froemming-like physique.

5. The AMLU guys all took the job knowing that MiLB thinks Scrooge's main problem was his boundless generosity. Therefore, the AMLU guys deserve to make what they make.

6. Umpiring the minor leagues is unlike brain surgery, teaching in an inner city, the Peace Corps, toting an M-60 in a combat zone or translating ancient Sanskrit. Therefore, comparing AMLU umpires to those professions is unfair, and minor league umpires don't deserve to make as much as any of those professionals. Therefore, it is ok for PBUC/MiLB to pay AAA umpires $15k a year.

7. On the other hand, umpiring in the minor leagues is unlike umpiring amatuer baseball at any level. Therefore, comparing AMLU umpires to their amatuer brothers and sisters is unfair, and there can be no just comparison for the compensation between the two groups. Therefore, it is ok for PBUC/MiLB to pay AAA umpires $15k a year.


8. On the still THIRD hand, umpiring in the minor leagues is unlike umpiring in the major leagues. Therefore, comparing AMLU umpires to their major league brethern is unfair, and there is no basis for comparison in their relative compensation packages. Therefore, it is ok for PBUC/MiLB to pay AAA umpires $15k a year.


Feel free (I know I don't have to invite) to correct any unfair characterizations or add any important points I have missed.

Here's the question to which I am led from MiLB/PBUC talking points six through eight above: What's the RIGHT comparison? "They are worth what PBUC will pay them" is a cop-out answer. But if those of us who support this union and its efforts to get a living wage are wrong in our analysis, tell us what the right analysis is, and support your answer with logic, please.

Strikes and outs!

Am I the Einstein you're talking about. I did say, in jest, where do I vote.

You think that if I had applied myself a little I could have made $75k per year? Wow!!!! It's a good thing that I applied myself even more than that....

Let's see, using your logic....
Apply myself a little = $75k
Apply myself a medium amount = $150k (?)
Apply myself a lot = $225k (?)
Maybe one more level is needed....
Apply myself an incredible amount = $300k (?) I like that one better, let's use it okay?

I think you answered your question.

5. The AMLU guys all took the job knowing that MiLB thinks Scrooge's main problem was his boundless generosity. Therefore, the AMLU guys deserve to make what they make

If you go to work in the coal mines of WV, you don't get to complain about emphesyma. There are many people in America that work for sweatshop wages and don't have medical or dental. They work twelve months a year and don't cry about it. No one forced them to take the job in the Minors. Lastly and most importantly, it has been referenced here and times - the AMLU boys make more at their 'side jobs' than they earn umpiring for PBUC. So let's do the math...that 10-15,000 gets doubled and they are still unhappy. Their plight might not strike a chord in the heartland where a farmer gets by on less than that.

I've said it before and you keep ignoring it...they are taking the chance on a dream. They put in the practice, hours and make huge sacrifices all in the name of a slim shot at fame and money. That sounds an awful lot like actors and musicians. In a supply and ddemand society, they get paid for the task they perform not what they are worth. Few of us think that they should get paid what they do, but we'll be damned if we will get bullied into backing 220 guys who think that they are God's gift. An awful lot of men are proving otherwise. By the way, get an almanac and see how many bench clearng brawls happened under the AMLU watch. Check out how many misdeeds and blunders occured under that watch. It will be apparent that the month of amateurs holding the fort is in pretty good company.

$30K for 5 months work??? Yeah, that makes sense when the average Minor League ball player makes less than that. The umpires are not that important and AMLU guys are even less.

I'm not ignoring it. And I didn't answer my own question.

A big league blue starts at $80k plus per diem and perks. He flies first class, stays in great hotels, etc., etc.

That's the dream. In the meantime, the AMLU guys work. More, by the way, than your asserted five months a year- spring training, fall instructional leagues, etc.

So where did you come up with $30k? And how do you figure that the minor league player's salary averages less than $30k? Where do you get that figure? Are you comparing AAA players to AAA umpires? I thought we weren't allowed to do that.

Strikes and outs!

Really, didn't you just write that there wasn't a strike in 1979?

Uh, no. I wrote that 1999 was not a strike...1979 was a strike. You swung and missed on that one.

But, the replacement umpires weren't as dedicated, skilled or equipped. The current crop of amateurs is better prepared for the game.

Tell that to all the players, coaches and managers who voted John Shulock one of the top 5 umpires in MLB six or seven years ago. I think John's long career speaks to his "skill" and "dedication". He wasn't the only one to go onto a long MLB career. In fact many of the replacement umpires in 1979 were former AAA umpires.


Yep, that's what some of us keep reminding them. They have a 5 MONTH JOB and want a 12 month salary.

Let's work on our math. March (spring training) through September (playoffs) equals 7 months the last time I counted. Then if in AAA you become classified as an "MLB prospect" you have AFL and overseas winterball. (Edited to add: In the interest of fairness: My subsequent posts should clarify that the $15,000 for an AAA umpire does not include spring training. They do get a pittance more for spring training.

Face it, amateur umpiring was a good ol' boy network back then....Those replacements were good but not as prepared as some high school guys today.

Don't know in 1979 as I was getting ready to play my first tee ball season. I'd take your word for it, but then everything else you've said so far has been off base so maybe I shouldn't.


That's a slightly biased assessment - 16 leagues and countless games every day...how many stories about bad umpiring?

Biased? It is an (my) opinion and I hold it out as such.

Are more and more stories about the umpiring situation being reported? In my opinion, yes. That seems like a tremendous waste of time...are you out of work or just fixated?

No more of a waste of time than your incessent need to go through other posters' posts and add your comments with your magic red font.

Has the majority of editorials...been pro-AMLU? I would say the vast majority that I have read have been. Did you read these is small town rags and umpire sites? Hmmmm

I don't call the New York Times "a small town rag". You might...that's your right. I also guess, from your tone, that in your view there are no small town newspapers producing quality journalism. In your world a newspaper must be in major city/metropolitian area to be of good quality, otherwise they're just a "small town rag". I think there's something wrong with one's logic when one determines the quality of a newspaper by its circulation size.

Does their (sic) appear to be more and more stories coming out about managers, GM's and minor league directors being upset about the replacement umps? ...Four weeks after the AMLU began the strike and they are still clawing for press. They have taken shots at amateurs for doing a thankless job and a few beat reporters have taken the bait. I haven't witnessed the MiLB turmoil on ESPN, MSNBC or the big 4 much. They probably don't have enough reporters looking for the 'news'.

The MLB union in 1979 sought out the press right to the end of their strike. The fact that the AMLU is still seeking out the press now far from suggests that the strike is not going well.

They have taken shots at amateurs. Agreed. I have posted elsewhere that this is pointless and a tactic I do not agree with.

There you go again...if a story doesn't appear on a major broadcaster or in a large circulation paper, then its not a "story". I don't follow that logic. Do a yahoo news search with "umpire" as the key word and one will see a steady increase in the number of hits (returns)...but of course since they're in a small newspaper or small market local TV station its not a "story" in your world.

(For the record, IMHO, the Young incident would have happened with or without the AMLU guys working the game. However, I don't share the same opinion about the forfeit.) We do agree on Young...history shows his tendencies and he will be a marked man from here on out. The SL melee was a joke in more ways than one. The Barons skipper was quoted as saying, "There was no one in charge out there." Uh...buddy...what's your job?...

LOL. The proudest moment I ever had on the field in my MiLB occured when I shut down a bean ball war. I won't go into all the details except to say that after everything was said and done (ejections given, warnings issued, fines (for leaving the dugout) issued) before the very next pitch, the batter turned to me and said, "Damn, its nice to finally have someone in control out here."

Your take on the recent situation shows that you obviously don't have any clue of "game management" on the pro level. Right or wrong players and managers expect you to control the situation, its a skill taught at pro school, and its part of the job description.

I personally think the strike is going well, and the AMLU is just beginning to get some momentum. I personally thought it would take longer than the 6-week MLB strike because it would take the AMLU longer to get the media to pay attention because this involves MiLB rather than MLB. Most of us figured that the AMLU was p*ssing in the wind on this one. No matter how long they were out, they would look bad. So far, that's exactly what is happening.

Talk about bias. As I said, the final result of this labor dispute will decide if they were p*ssing in the wind, or if the "strike went well". That's your opinion that "that's exactly what is happening". Again, one reading all these stories/editorials (oh, wait they're not "stories" in your world) would likely get the impression that the AMLU "looks good" in that they are "in the right".

Of course, the final judgment as to the success of the strike will be when a CBA is signed. Okay...are you done now? We all figured that the strike would end when a new CBA was enacted or when they wised up and formed a new union.

I'll be more blunt since it appears I have to connect the dots for you...The terms of the new CBA will likely dictate whether the strike was a success or not. Either MiLB makes concessions or they don't.

As to your first question...My first job after leaving the minor leagues (and before going to law school) was as a Sports Information Director at an NCAA Division 2 school. I made $30k. I provided as much of a service to society as an MiLB umpire does. Your value to society does not dictate what your salary is. Really, counselor...

True (after all I am currently way underpaid), but the original poster to whom I was responding, asked what I thought their salary should be based on their "service to mankind". I simply changed it to "service to society" in error. I should have left in the word "mankind".

In this position I had minimal duties from mid-may to mid-August (not quite as long of an "off-season" as AMLU members). Not quite??? 3 months off versus 7??? What law school did you go to?

See my response above in this post for my opinion of your math.

I think that salary (which is double a "AAA") salary is justifiable. For the record, that is what I think they should make...not what I'm predicting they will make after this strike. I don't want someone coming back and posting a month down the road that I claimed that a "AAA" ump would make $30k after the strike. I just think (1) that is what they should make IMHO (2) MiLB and MLB have both seen record growth over the last six years and as a result there is more than enough money to easily fund this salary level. Let's see a starting WUA umpire makes $80,000 for working an impossible level of baseball. He works an extra month, is scrutinized up the yingyang and travels his *** off. If the AMLU wants you to believe that the pressure between amateur ball and MiLB is night and day then so it is with MLB and MiLB. We saw what happens when you put AAA umpires in the WBC.

I've never umpired MLB so my response to this question is based solely on knowledge gained from my continuing friendship with people who are "still in the game". First, MiLB umpires travel their *** off. From what I can gather travel is worse in the minors. You drive 4,6,8, 10 hours after a ball game to stay in a mom and pop hotel and then you go out to eat when you get there...only oops you have hardly anything left in that great per diem you get so you grab another grease job at McDonalds. In MLB you fly (often first class) stay at first class hotels (at least the ones that I know are the MLB umpires' hotel) and everytime I've gone out to eat with an MLB umpire...I've eaten pretty damn well. Also, one MLB umpire told me that the "pressure" of the MLB spring training and majority of the regular season was "high but surprisingly not that bad". Although, to be fair he did say that NOTHING compares to the pressure of umpiring a series between contenders in September or in the playoffs. Of course I am not suggesting that this one umpire can speak for the entire MLB staff.

If you had applied yourself a little, making 75K a year may have happened. ROTFLMAO

Wow, that's so tasteless and classless and such an assumption, that I won't say anything further.

Inflation & Income
 

Don't want to get into the middle of this fine lawyer talk but I understood from talking to some umps that MiLB has absorbed all of the health care premium increases and the gasoline charge is reimbursed at the IRS rate. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. So MiLB would be paying those inflationary costs. Also, in some leagues (Double A maybe) the leagues provide and pay for vans.

Some current or former umps can elaborate but I've also heard that umps will often get special perqs like discounted or free golf and health club memberships because of minor league club's deals. I'm sure the IRS would consider this income, not that anyone in america would report it as such. And from what I understand the umps load up on the free hotel breakfast and get fed at the park, so often it's one meal a day and snacks that we're talking about with per diem.

Don't have the energy (or courtroom skills!) to tackle the other points. I'll leave that to the perry masons on the board.