As to the argument: "they only work 5 months a year so they are being paid adequately."

First, they work March through September = 7 months.

But, they don't work normal days. They work 7 days a week during those months. They get no vacations. No trips home. They live their job for the entire season.

They may have 1 or 2 scheduled days off...but they can loose those if the league schedules make-up games due to rain, etc.

A full-season MiLB umpire will work 140 regular season games + 4 weeks (28 games, give or take) of spring training + (possibly) 7 post-season games.

That's 175 work days in seven months or so. (With no vacations and no holidays)

Now let's look at someone who works a traditional 9 to 5 Monday through
Friday job.

There are 260 weekdays (potential work days) in 2006.

Now subtract the holidays most workers get. (New Year's Day, MLK Day, President's Day, Good Friday or Easter Monday, Memorial Day, Fourth of July, Labor Day, Columbus Day, Thanksgiving Day and Friday, Christmas Eve and Day).

That's 12 holidays (if you make the assumption that a worker gets Good Friday or Easter Monday off, but not both.) We're down to 248 work days.

Now let's add state holidays. Of course this varies from state to state. Massachusetts (and Maine) has Patriot Day. South Carolina has Confederate Memorial Day. Other states have other holidays. I'll guess (yes, its a guess) that the average is one a year. We're down to 247.

Now let's add in a two-week vacation (-10 days) and one-week of sick leave (-5 days). I got these figures from all the entry level jobs I've ever had. That gets us to 232.

That's 232 work days vs. 175. Or a minor league umpire's annual number of work days are 75% of a "traditional" worker's annual number of work days. This is far different than "they work 5 months instead of 12" which suggests they work 41.6% as much as a "traditional" worker.

Of course, as a "traditional worker" moves up the ladder his/her vacation and sick leave usually goes up. Since, a pro umpire gets absolutely NO leave time until he makes it to MLB...I would say its fair to conclude that a 10-year AAA pro umpire's annual number of work days are even closer to the annual number of work days for a "traditional worker" who is a 10-year veteran with a company.

I'm not suggesting that a MiLB umpire works as many days as a "traditional worker"...but the gap between these two groups is a lot smaller than others might suggest.

(Edit: Again, my posts below should show my mea culpa for forgetting that umpires are paid separately for spring training. (I've been out of the game too long) They get paid a pittance during spring training that is in addition to their salary. But, as I said below, even though they may not be required to work spring training under the CBA, they are in reality required if they desire to be promoted. Thus the 175 work days argument I stated above is valid...only its at $15,000 + (pittance payed by host team) for those 7 months for a AAA umpire.)

apples & oranges
 

Are the AMLU guys including their spring training pay in the nubmers they are throwing around? I didn't get the impression that they were including it in those numbers so you can count march if they aren't.

I think its hard to compare an umpiring job to people working 8 or 10 hour days. A lot of people would love to go to the ballpark for work.

Your thoughts on the difficulty of travel are valid.

I don't know if Spring Training is currently included in the "they get paid $15,000" per year. I do know this, if they are not working MLB spring training, they are getting paid a minimal amount for that month. If I remember back to the late '90s, I believe I was paid by the organization I was assigned to...and that this amount varied from organization to organization. I have had numerous persons complain to me about the spring training pay since I left the game.

Let's not kid ourselves, whether their contract with PBUC requires them to work spring training or not...the fact is, for the past 15 years, they have to work it if they have any hope of promotion.

So if they are paid by the organization they're assigned to and not under the expired CBA with MiLB/PBUC...they make a bit more...instead of the $15,000 I suggested for a AAA umpire. But, all they get is that same unlivable monthly wage (or less...as in my case) for another month.

They are still working 175 days vs. 232. Only the base pay of $15,000 would be a bit higher.

I'll try to track down a more exact amount from some friends today.

As for "going to the ballpark" each day...Sure I agree, but I think for a lot of umpires the grind of the life causes one to loose that romanticism after a few seasons.

I went back and took a look at my finances for my 1st year in the game and I made almost $14,500 in Salary that included Spring, Extended, Short A, and Instructs. That does not include per diem which was roughly $4000. I was not a driver my first year but I was my second, and those mileage checks were very nice, and yes the cost of gas has gone up, but if they were to match the federal mileage rate, then that would be a major chunk of change.

Lets' look at a AAA guy making $2800/month during Spring, AAA, instructs he would make about 22,000, and when the guys that get back from the Caribbean, they are carrying anywhere from $8000-$12,000, cash with them.

The point, neither side is being honest about the numbers, so let's not play the numbers game.

Starting Teacher makes about $28,000 for 9 months of work and no meal money and no mileage to drive to work. Should they be paid more? Probably. What did they spend on their professional training? $50,000, minimum!

Starting Umpire makes about $14,500 for 7 months of work and about $4000 for meals and about $0.40 a mile do drive to work. Should they be paid more? Probably. What did they spend on their professional training? $5,000 maximum!

Working at the Ballpark
 

I'm just saying that many people would trade their daily grind for the "grind" of going to a pro ballpark each day. I've seen umpire and other facilites in new minor league parks and they're really nice.

Yes, they've come a long way from the "nail on the wall to hang your clothes" stories I heard when I first started umpiring.

I did not calculate Winter Ball (Carribean) at all. I have no idea what they make for that. The numbers I suggested were only for 7 months of work (175 days of work). They did not include AFL (instructs) either. I have no idea what they make for that...I could have asked, but haven't. I've given a mea culpa on the Spring Training...obviously I counted SPring Training as one of the 7 months, but did not count it in the salary figure of $15,000. As I said above they would thus be working 175 days (games) for a more than $15000. The exact amount varying depending on which club you were assigned to.

I have no knowledge of what they get paid for AFL or Carribean work...but I did not include that in the 175 work days a year, either. And the majority of umpires (AAA and others) are not lucky enough to work those in any given year.

Where is this teacher starting their job at? I can tell you the Chicago Public Schools start new teachers out about $40,000 and will give them breaks in loans to find housing in the city limits. I know teachers that have several years of service can make $60,000-$80,000 depending on what they teach and what they do for the school. None of this includes benefits and insurance packages if a teacher is faced with health care issues. Now this is a major metropolitan area I am talking about and they are a great need for teachers across the board. This might not apply to other parts of the country. I know if you gave someone $28,000 in the community I grew up in, it might not be a lot of money, but the money would go a lot longer because the cost of living is not as great.

This is why I feel we should not compare different professions in this debate. It really is not a fair comparison.

Peace

I got my info off of the US Dept of Ed website, the min for the US is 28k, I went back and looked and the minimum starting in Illinois is 32k with the average salary of 49k for all teachers.

As for the programs and perks, there are programs and perks in every job. One of the perks of being a MiLB umpire, is when you get out, you can work NCAA ball without playing politics and make more in 12 weekends then you made in a year of MiLB ball.

MiLB negotiated a new deal for the umpires this year to get paid $100 per day (not game) during Spring Training. MiLB did not need to do this, but negotiated with the teams on behalf of the umpires who were threatening to strike.

Not entirely true. The umpires were offered 100/day, but only because MLB ballclubs went to PBUC with the offer. For years PBUC has said they can't do anything about what is paid at spring training.

spring
 

Do you think MiLB can tell MLB clubs how much to pay? I'd be surprised if they could.

So the minor lg umps turned down $100 per day? Did that include per diem and housing or is that separate?

$100/day was pay and food. housing is a horse of a different color. a FEW are housed in apartment complexes while most are put up in hotels and live 2 to a room, which is BS.

Hey Bobby
 

Would that horse be considered a minority horse?

Inflation and income
 

What I have come to understand in my visits with my AMLU friends is that MiLB is seeking to raise the heath insurance deductible by $500 per year (from whatever it is now), effectively wiping out most of the proposed "raise." I could be wrong. I have been before. And when I'm talking about gas prices I'm talking about what they (or their significant others) pay to put in their personal vehicles- not that they get to drive them around during the season.

I'm sorry, but I just can't get there with you on the Hampton Inn breakfast bar or the dressing room fridge stocked with Snickers. $22 a day doesn't buy much in the way of healthy food in a restuarant in most markets. And forget it if you want to have (gasp!) a beer.

Strikes and outs!

I know that there are a lot more hotels offering free breakfast today than 8 years ago...However, many of the hotels I stayed in during my first year in the game were mom and pop hotels (or the only hotel in town) that did not offer a free breakfast. Its ironic, but it is during the first year that an umpire could really use that free breakfast the most as his salary and per diem is at their lowest point for his entire career. (And yes I used the word "career")

As for free food at the ballpark? On the Single "A" level, that is not guaranteed. Far from it. When I did get a free meal, 95% of the time it was hot dogs and a drink. I got sick of damn hot dogs. (In fact, I still haven't eaten one in years). Props to Charleston, SC, though, who served us shrimp!!!

So what did we do? We slept through breakfast (admittedly not hard to do). Ate a cheap lunch (fast food) and then went out to eat at a chain-type place for supper (applebee's, etc.).

Not the healthiest lifestyle.

I found it ironic at the time that they (PBUC) were harping on our physical fitness (we were the first class after John McSherry's death, so there was a heightened awareness) but then gave us enough money to make eating healthy very difficult.

if it is a minority horse i hope it's a US resident OR in the game already, cuz they won't being paying for it to get to work from overseas...

Admittedly, it is difficult to eat healthy on $22 a day. I lived on five dollar breakfasts and lunch at Hardees and McDonalds while coming up. Yeah, those hotdogs get tiresome - so do nachos and local sponsor fare. My partner drove that first year and he packed a cooler full of stuff for us. We would take the cracker packets, individual ketchup and mustards, salt and pepper shakers and whatever we could get our hands on at the park, friends' places or restaurants. We ate tons of cup o' noodles and figured out fifty ways to make mac n' cheese better. We grumbled and got by without getting fat.

That said, NO ONE FORCED US TO SIGN ON AND TAKE THE JOB! We knew going in that it would be tough. Hell, most of had just finished college and knew what it was like to live that way. I ironed my clothes on the floor of the locker room. I took plenty of cold showers, slept in the car and learned to say, "Shhh, you'll wake my partner." when in a flea bag somewhere. That is part of the deal. That first season is rough - the pressure is intense and the lifestyle lacking. Anyone who signs up for the next season and complains is just a joke. Did you think things would change going to the next level?

What's the adage - "Fool me once...

nothing beats mixing one pack of 'easy mac' with one pack of 'ragu express' - its delectable.

In Washington state teachers' starting salary is 30,380. With a masters degree and 15 years experience, they make 50,530. They cannot reach $80,000 no matter how long the teach or how many degrees they obtain.

A minority horse is a horse, of course.....

Health Insurance
 

I take it no one refutes the assertion that PBUC wants to increase the health insurance deductible to $500- wiping out almost all of the "raise".

PBUC talking point #9:

9. You signed up knowing that eventually, you'd have to pay for the privilege of umpiring. Quit your bellyachin'! Why, when I was a minor league umpire, we used to walk uphill ten miles (both to and from the ballpark) in waist deep snow from the cardboard box we were staying in to get to the stadium. The plate guy had to drag his gear along the ground in a trash bag. We ate the peanut shells off of the grandstand floor for dinner and WE NEVER COMPLAINED . . .

Strikes and outs!

The funny thing about GenX, Y and Z...they don't want to pay their dues...give me instant gratification baby! It is about much more than showing up on time and making the calls. Boot camp takes the heart out of you before building you up. Yes, we agree that you should make more, but whining about not getting by on 10-15,000 for five months' work is petty. You and I both know you aren't living on just the PBUC salary. Get a better off season job and start saving, we did and are fine now. Do you need help investing your money? ;)

I read a quote somewhere that in the last few years only a handful of umpires would have been affected by the deductible increase because most umps stay in-network and that the union was being misleading about this. I think it was a quote from a PBUC official.

I don't think the peanut gallery is in a good position to say who's right on this, how can we know?

Let me introduce you to the bus driver...
 

Any more speculation about what the brass is seeking?

Where is the outrage?
Of all those in the umpire community the MLB umps know better than any one the poverty level pay scale, terrible work conditions, inordinate amount of unpaid overtime via extra inning games and the constant verbal abuse the MiLB are subjected to.
Most MiLB members and supporters want to condemn the so called 'scab' who more than likely is a middleaged man of moderate income with a family to support. The $100 he earns at this level far exceeds the $40 or 50 he normally gets and all the money he gets from umpiring will end up being eaten up by the family budget. (I'm speaking generally, not universally) So the money he earns goes towards raising a family. You also have the thrill factor of umpiring a professional game in front of thousands, that's something few umpires ever have the privelege of experiencing. But the replacement is a scab and worthy of all our disdain and hatred as well as deseving of being blackballed within our community.
But the MLB ump making $200 Gs is probably the only ump within our 'brotherhood' that can actually make an impact by striking. Why are they crossing the picket line(so to speak) and getting a free pass while Joe ump realizes a dream very few get to experience and is demonized for it.
If anyone is a scab in this it's the fat cat umps at MLB.
If you want to argue that it's not their fight then how can you argue that it's the fight of any replacement.
Why isn't the MiLB demonizing the MLB for not supporting the 'brotherhood'?
MLB has much more in common with MiLB than any 'amateur ump'

I think referring to the replacements as vultures is ridiculus if you don't also have just as much disdain for MLB for their lack of support.

Huh?

Anti-AMLU talking point number 10- It's the MLB umpires' fault. After all, if they were making comparable to what AAA guys make, nobody would want the job. And if THEY went on strike, why what a fine kettle of fish baseball would be in!

Forget, of course, that striking in the middle of their contract without good legal grounds (and I don't think this qualifies) would give MLB THE perfect excuse to fire them. And if you don't think they would, I suggest you look closely back at the last 30 year history of baseball and umpire labor relations. Heck, look back at the last 100 years of baseball/labor relations. You may cuss unions, you may cuss player and umpire salaries. The fact is, folks, baseball is a profitable business, on the whole. Not every team and every owner makes money, but most do, or billionares wouldn't keep buying clubs.

I didn't like Curt Flood because I was and am a Phillies fan. But he was, in the end, right. And so are the AMLU guys. We can live with the current system, for fans, players and umpires, or we can go back to Charles Comiskey.

What is it, precisely, that you would have WUA do? Strike too? (Bad pun.) You can't have it both ways. You can't say on the one hand that MiLB and MLB are different worlds with different conditions and then turn around and blame the MLB umpires for going to work. The MLB guys starts- STARTS- at more than 5 times the maximum a AAA umpire makes.

My point, such as it was, was in response to WWTB or DIV2 or the numerous other people on this board who think that AMLU is wrong, at least tactically to strike because of the hundreds if not thousands of other, just as qualified
umpires out there just itching to take their places. Argue logically. Please. Leave the bait and switch off of this board.

Strikes and outs!

Don't put words in my mouth or mischaracterize what I've written for over six months. I never wrote that they were wrong to strike because of the presence of a capable replacement workforce presence. I have insisted that striking - after you knew the bargain going into it - looks petty. I also wrote that most of us agree that they should be paid more for their talent. Few of us dispute that they are better qualified to serve that game than the average amateur. However, the replacements have been up to the task (with a few exceptions), the average fan doesn't care about the AMLU situation and the AMLU brass has selectively targeted amateurs with threats and intimidation. Those are mistakes.

The recent cry that the media has finally taken notice is laughable. A few local beat reporters are looking to make a name for themselves. I never realized that umpires gave so much creedence to what a skipper or player said about the calls. Yet, these same jokers who call themselves professional are posting stories on their site extolling how smart the skippers and players must be. So let me ask you this AMLU gang...when you walk onto the field and the skipper says, "Wow, we had a crew here last series that was just brutal. The zone was all over the place and they didn't know where they should be to make certain calls." Do you ignore them and accept the fact that most of them don't even know a basic balk when they see it, much less umpire mechanics? That's what I was taught to do, but apparently you find that ripping apart another crews' job is acceptable and professional. The beauty of this is that you will be out there some day and tell that same skipper that he doesn't know what he's talking about when he challenges you or your partner(s).

Let's get the facts straight eh?
 

Huh?

They can strike away. I don't know if its a good decision or not. The proof is in the pudding and we can't tell until this is over. My problem is with the late night phone harassing phone calls they make to the replacements ("scab" in mindless union supporter parlance) and their families, the unprofessional heckling of the replacements at games and the brilliant "scab photo gallery."

WWTB,

Dude...if you are going to f'n quote me (as you did in your last post on this thread)...at least make sure its a quote from me. Please don't attribute quotes to me that aren't mine.

That's the second time you screwed up a quote from me. First, you attempted to say that I said 1979 wasn't a strike.

Now your putting a whole quote on your post and saying that I originally posted it.

It's true in some sense that the proof is in the pudding. However, it is possible to criticize the decision to strike, on the grounds that the AMLU has insufficient leverage over MiLB to make a strike work. They knew this (or should have known it) ahead of the decision to strike. This is the reason that many around baseball have criticized the leadership of the AMLU: they were either rash or ignorant (or both), neither of these being valuable qualities in leadership.

An outcome favorable to the AMLU is still possible, but unlikely, just as it was before the strike. We can all hope for the best, but the decision to strike was still a poor one, even with a favorable outcome.

I disagree. There are those of us who defend the MiLB umpires and support their demands who also believe they were not represented wll by their leaders in the AMLU. Much of what has developed was predictable and predicted.

The AMLU is not like the miners union, whose own members,for the most part are not fans of their jobs. There are not lines of replacements waiting to work the mines during their strikes, thus the union wins the "numbers" game with management. The AMLU is comprised of members, who, for the most part, love their jobs and there is a pool of replacements larger than the number of openings. Thus the AMLU loses the numbers game.

Again, using the miners as our example, most, as a result of their location and socio-economic status, truly believe they have no option but to work the mines. This status has been accepted by the media and translates into widespread sympathetic coverage and requires more diplomatic handling by management. MiLB umpires, perhaps more than any other trade in the country, ply their trade by choice, many having given up other, more profitable opportunities. While we umpires admire this, it is not seen as a position of strength by the media, management or fans. Simply put, most AMLU members and their families would be better off if they did not umpire baseball. Again, this is not a position of strength.

As they indicated they would, management has done a good job of positioning the umpires as, at best, part-time employees and even "apprentices". Even the mediator was swayed in part by this argument.

Instead of approaching amateur umpires with a campaign of what the "right thing to do" is and why, the AMLU adopted heavy handed, teamster-like tactics of intimidation, harassment, ridicule and in at least one case, outright lying.

When the strike ends, no matter how both sides claim victory, and they both will, one truth will be that the MiLB umpires will never, in their MiLB career, recoup the money they have lost during the strike.

If, as some AMLU leaders contend, the strike was more for future umpires than the present umpires, incremental changes beginning at the A level could have been negotiated that would have spread to the upper levels as those umpires progressed through the system.

MiLB umpires deserve more money. MiLB umpires deserve better benefits. MiLB umpires deserve more respect and protection. Most importantly, however, MiLB umpires deserve better union leadership.

My lawn care guys deserve more money too, so does my grocer, my pizza delivery guy, my mechanic, etc etc My propane guy, now he doesn't deserve anymore and guess what, he's the hardest on the list to replace.
Did I mention me, I deserve more
They may all deserve more but guess what, they're all easily replaced. And chances are they won't be getting more any time soon. Pretty simple economics.
Really when you think about it, of all the work force working at the level they're at, the MiLB may be the least deserving. They're working at those wages by choice and virtually all of them have better opportunities outside of umpiring. The rest of the work force surviving at those wage levels are there out of necessity and have much less opportunity for improvement.

Oh, get over yourself...you sound like the other guy and both of you use noms de net that imply legal expertise. Yes, I attributed to the wrong barrister - there, mea culpa. I suggest you go back and read the post about 1979 again and then make your apology.

The First Thing We Do . . .
 

Yeah, you know, we all sound alike.

I don't need to imply anything. I yam what I yam.

Even your "apology" seethes with conceit, dude. Pepper your posts with some more Latin. It makes you sound much cooler.

Strikes and outs!

That's our Windy...errrr....WWTB!

There's nothing wrong with conceit when you can support it.

'Noms de net' is French, so I would consider suing the law school you purportedly attended. If you need the name of a good attorney, I can recommend one.

A Latin ode - Semper ubi sub ubi. ~Julius Caesar's Mother (Happy Mother's Day)

Wwtb
 

I could engage in this ping pong with you for eternity. I have better things to do.

You win. Not only do I lose, but I suck while doing it. I'm a terrible lawyer and a worse umpire. You get the last word, WWTB. Congratulations.

Strikes and outs!

Eccere santorum.........


Tim.

Don't think so. How's the balk learnin' coming?;)



Tim.

'Ping Pong' implies that you can volley...from what I've read that is not apparent. I didn't need the last word, most of yours sufficed as nails in your coffin.

The only professions I know that use Latin involve legal and medical personnel. Your inability to recognize the difference between a simple French term and archaic Latin lead me to believe that you may better deserve the name 'Windy'. Which law school did you attend?

Here's what I said when I brought up 1979 for the first time in this thread (my post was a discussion of both 1979 and 1999, and how the AMLU strike (IMHO) is more like 1979 than 1999):


(And for the record: 1999 was not a strike. They were legally barred from striking...they signed their right to strike away in the CBA...so they "quit" instead. Why did they do this suicidal move? In my opinion, they did this because their lawyer had an ego the size of Texas. Why did he have a large ego? Because he had been kicking MLB around for two decades. Everyone remembers the 1999 disaster and many think the AMLU is following this same path. Few, however, remember that MLB umps went from making $10 to $30k in 1979 to where they are now ($100k to $350k) because of all those successful strikes).

I believe that this strike is much more similar to 1979 than 1999. That MLB strike lasted 6 full weeks. It involved picketing at stadiums, press releases and press conferences. In many ways, the umpires in 1979 were worse off than today's MiLB umpires. In 1979 many were on the verge of going on food stamps, etc. The MiLB umpires are younger and can easily get work paying more than what they make on the field. (Many have kept their off-season jobs).

So what happened in 1979? Eventually the umpiring product on the field caused others in baseball to put pressure on the Leagues to settle and get the "regular guys" back on the field. It took awhile for the press to start paying attention...but they did. Did some of the "replacements" do an adequate job on the field. Sure...many had (or are in the middle of) long MLB careers.

OK windy...please point out where I stated 1979 was not a strike?

I'll give you your props on one point, though:

I admit that you have mastered one lawyerly skill: Your ability to make loud boisterous arguments, full of puffery, in an attempt to obscure the fact that the facts themselves are not on your side in a particular case is almost without equal. Actually that's not a lawyerly skill, that's the skill of a carnival potion salesman.

"Semper ubi sub ubi" -- nah, I always keep my balls in a ball bag.

Contra veritatem lex nunquam aliquid permittit.

You know, I couldn't resist
 

The well known French phrase. Why, just the other day, at a cozy little Paris bistro/web cafe where I am known to hang out, the French were throwing "noms de net" around like stale croissants.

Latin: "my fault."

You are the picture of class and everything we want in an umpire.

Just out of curiousity, WWTB, why do you want to know where I went to law school? I have a guess that if I said "Harvard" "Stanford" or "Yale", you'd find a reason to insult that school (for graduating me). If on the other hand, I said "East Pine Tree Tech", you'd find a reason to insult me (for not going to a prestige school).

My biography, frankly, is none of your business at this point. I'm happy with it; I have no current need for validation or approval from you. Move to my town, become my assignor, maybe then it's a different story.

Then again, you probably wouldn't like it here. We like and respect each other here; we stick together and we drink beer together. We're not perfect, for sure, but generally we don't feel the need to build ourselves up by tearing others down.

You win, dude. Take your victory and be happy with it.

Strikes and outs!

Like I said.....THAT'S WWTB! You know what you get when you get into it with him. Generally, though, he's funnier.

Hey, good catch on the mea culpa...

The comment about 1979, 1999 and now is pretty obvious.

(And for the record: 1999 was not a strike. They were legally barred from striking...they signed their right to strike away in the CBA...so they "quit" instead. Why did they do this suicidal move? In my opinion, they did this because their lawyer had an ego the size of Texas. Why did he have a large ego? Because he had been kicking MLB around for two decades. Everyone remembers the 1999 disaster and many think the AMLU is following this same path. Few, however, remember that MLB umps went from making $10 to $30k in 1979 to where they are now ($100k to $350k) because of all those successful strikes).

I believe that this strike is much more similar to 1979 than 1999. (ramble, ramble, ramble)

Your first sentence states that 1999 wasn't a strike. Then the first sentence of the next paragraph argues that the current situation is more similar to 1979 then 1999. Duh! Those are your words and you felt compelled to relive the embrassment. Thank you for making my job easy. I would have made a fortune litigating against you.

No offense, W, but my dog probably knows the meaning and origin of mea culpa.:rolleyes:

THERE YOU GO, TRYING TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT AND OBSCURE THE FACT THAT YOU ARE WRONG, AGAIN.

You can't go back and change what everyone read (oh, wait...I guess you could with the "edit" feature on this website.)

YOU wrote, "didn't you just write that there wasn't a strike in 1979," in your magic red font (tm). THOSE WERE YOUR EXACT WORDS.

I responded and said I never wrote that there wasn't a strike in 1979. In fact, as you can clearly see, I wrote that there WAS a strike in 1979.

YOU WERE WRONG. Now to obscure that fact, you are trying to change the course of this discussion by implying that you initially said that my argument that the AMLU strike is more like 1979 than 1999 was weak because it is so obvious.

YOU ARE TRYING TO CHANGE YOUR ARGUMENT IN MID-THREAD. If you wanted to argue that my statement that, "the AMLU strike is more like 1979 than 1999" is/was weak because it is such an obvious statement (as you wrote, "duh!") then that is what you should have written.

BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU WROTE. You wrote, "didn't you just write that there wasn't a strike in 1979?"

I simply corrected you (numerous times) and said NO WHERE HAVE I SAID THAT 1979 WAS NOT A STRIKE.

In addition to engaging in puffery you are now engaging in slight-of-hand in an attempt to obscure the fact that you were wrong. Keep it up and soon you'll be able to open your own one-man carnival.

Now, since you've indirectly argued ("duh!") that my assertion (that the AMLU strike is more like 1979 than 1999) is weak because it is so obvious...I agree with you that it is very obvious. However, many posters have suggested (on this and other sites) that the AMLU is heading down the path that the MLB umps followed in 1999. This has been directly stated by others. I felt it necessary to counter this argument (as I have in other threads) with the written assertion that I believe that this strike was more like 1979 than 1999.

I know that this comparison is so painfully obvious for a man of your prodigious intellect. However, I will not assume that everyone else is on your level. So please be warned: this probably won't be the last time that I state something that, to you, seems so "obvious". Alas, you are not the only reader of my posts.

Contra veritatem lex nunquam aliquid permittit.

Lawump,
Why do you engage in conversations with WWTB??? He doesn't have a clue and you are going down to his level. Let it go brotha - it's like arguing with a rat and/or manager - sometimes you just gotta walk away. I wouldn't even waste my time running him - he's not worth an ejection report.

Spoken like a person who was beat down too many times. I'm sorry if it still stings a bit...you just never learned. Don't worry, time heals all.

Alas and alack...I reviewed my contentious post and found that I had done exactly as lawump stated. Mistakenly, I had written 1979 instead of 1999. Mea culpa.

The fact that I furthered my position by talking about how you said there wasn't even a strike that year should have let you in on the topic. However, like an umpire that verbalizes one call while signalling another, I f-ed up. There, I hope you can rest tonight knowing that I was man enough to admit a foible.

<Sigh>
 

WWTB:

I have said nothing about either the 1979 strike or the 1999 resignation-in-lieu-of-a-strike. That was lawump. I am woefully undereducated in that history. For all I know he is an expert in that area.

Lawump and I are not the same lawyer. We are not the same umpire. He and I are no more the same because of the "Law" in our screennames than you and I are the same because of the "Blue" we share. This is the second time you have done this- attributing his quotes to me or mine to him.

Strikes and outs!

Now all you have to do is admit that you are a horsh!t umpire who hides shamelessly behind a false internet name and pretends to know a lot about umpiring.... and then we would all agree that you were "MAN enough to admit the truth".

I'll be in Schaumburg, Joliet & Gary this summer - look forward to having a beer with you after the game ;)

There is nothing lower than taking a few kidney punches on someone who is already down. I admitted my mistake and you are only too brave to hit and run. I guess that speaks volumes about what kind of man you are.

I may be a horse**** umpire, but that would put me a couple levels better than you. I don't recall thinking that indie ball was the pinnacle of my career.

My identity keeps perplexing you but a novice member recently knew much more than you. Lah-me!

i live between schaumburg and joliet, and beer is good. when will you be working at those stadiums?

Wow... Are you being a bit dramatic here or what

I would love to work on a field with you anywhere, anytime. Working independent ball means nothing so I don't know where that "pinnacle" crap comes from. As I said before, I am in the Chicago area often - let's go work a game of your choice (at any level) and I will work circles around you.

I don't give a f#@k who you are nor do I care to find out. If you think you're a couple levels above me, let's go work a game together and the proof will be on the field. Tell you what, I won't even ask you your name - how does that sound?

I'll say this much, Sal. I was upset that my boys and I couldn't make it out to the Notre Dame ~vs~ Purdue game to see you work. My 13 year old had an I.C.C.L. game that we couldn't miss. I've seen quite a few of the guys you routinely work with call games at Eck Stadium, and to a man they are all excellent officials. In fact most are better than any I've seen work at the MiLb single A level here in South Bend. I figure you're guilty by association because you work so much with these guys. For that reason, I would work a game with you anywhere, anytime, and be a better umpire for it, I'm sure.


Tim.

Brian,
I will be in Schaumburg on June 2-4 and Joliet August 18-20. Email me and I'll leave you tickets at will call. First round is on me ;)

Thanks Tim for the kind words. I will say that although I work with a lot of the guys from the Big East, I am not in that conference yet. With all due respect, some of those guys you see at Notre Dame are ex minor league guys with a lot of NCAA years including College World Series credentials. I am not in their class however, hope to be in their "shadows" somewhere down the road.

I will also be in Gary,IN (Railcats) for three separte series throughout the summer. If you want to get together then, email me and maybe we can hook up. Since my games are at night time, I would be glad to come out and watch you work during the daytime if I'm not to far from you.

i remember seeing your email once around here but i cant find it, and its not listed in your profile. i dont know if you want to post it on here again, but mine is brian.curtin[AT]gmail.com

[email protected] - look forward to hearing from you

Oh, please...your posts were what most people would call 'piling on'. They added nothing to the conversation, other than to make a personal attack. If you accuse me of being a fraud, then I counter with the FACT that you are a coward. Hit and run is not noble and respect is a double edged sword. I can't recall the last time I said something negative about you. Recently, you've taken multiple jabs only to have me reply, 'disappointed'.

Braggadocio doesn't become you...without knowing who I am, you just said that you are better. That is misplaced ego and others can surely see your folly. I've said it before, my best years are behind me. In my prime, you couldn't carry my gear from the lot to the locker room. A couple of years in D1 and some indie ball mean nothing when you compare your resume to mine. I paid my dues and worked as a pro, you have only recently found your stride. Go to school, get hired and work for a few years...then I'll listen to your stories. The next thing you'll tell me is that your manhood is larger and your car nicer. Good Lord, you can spin a yarn.

Bwahahahahahahaha! I KNOW that I'm a couple levels above you. Your last line is funny...how many guys do you work with but don't know their names? In that fantasy league of yours, pencil in Dutch Rennert and John McSherry as your partners.

Those weren't jabs - those were knock out pouches loaded with a lot of truth


Oh, so you WERE better than me at one time. Now you sound like the typical "white hairs" I work with from time to time... living in the past.

Ofcourse YOU know you're a couple levels above me... the only problem is that you're the ONLY one who knows that. One thing I know for sure is you're a legend........... in your own mind.

WWTB, I'm done with you - You're gone!! How's that - I just ran you "internet style".

If those were you're knock out punches then I'm really sorry that I considered you an opponent. I correctly wrote 'jabs' because they are easily deflected.

If you treat all of 'those white hairs' and others who are better than you like this, I know why you never made it in professional ball. You really should have that ego checked, it appears to be overinflated. But then again, I ran into dozens of guys on the sandlot who thought they were better than Hank Aaron.

Another hit and run...internet style; you'd be carrying your teeth in your hand if we met. You may have talent but your pile-on style and kidney shots make you a punk.

I'm going back to bed, you are really classy Sal.

You know where to find me (as I posted some of the dates when I'll be in your backyard). I'll be waiting..... unlike yourself, I don't hide behind anything.

Mea Culpa
 

I accept your mea culpa.

I guess that fortune you would have made litigating against me is now gone. The senior partners in my firm are now relieved to know that I'll be continuing to add to the firm's coffers.

Don't worry you're not alone: quite a number of white haired lawyers in my area thought that all they had to do to win against me was show up. They were wrong, too.

I fought the law and the law won
 

"The first thing we do is kill all the lawyers."

There, that'll take care of that problem!:p

Unfortunately, SD, there is also "kill the umpire", leaving this a very empty board.

SDS,

Please don't take this personal...

A lot of people are quick to quote the line "the first thing we do is kill all the lawyers," from Shakespeares' Henry VI. These persons often quote this line thinking that Shakespeare despised lawyers and thought the world would be better off without them. They are wrong. Shakespeare was paying homage to our profession.

To quote another internet site:

"Even a cursory reading of the context in which the lawyer killing statement is made in King Henry VI, Part II, (Act IV), Scene 2, reveals that Shakespeare was paying great and deserved homage to our venerable profession as the frontline defenders of democracy.

"The accolade is spoken by Dick the Butcher, a follower of anarchist Jack Cade, whom Shakespeare depicts as 'the head of an army of rabble and a dema-gogue pandering to the ignorant,' who sought to overthrow the government.

Shakespeare’s acknowledgment that the first thing any potential tyrant must do to eliminate freedom is to “kill all the lawyers” is, indeed, a classic and well-deserved compliment to our distinguished profession."

These characters wanted to overthrow the government by force. They knew the lawyers would oppose them and stand up for democracy. Thus, they decided that they must kill all the lawyers first in order to be successful in their "revolution".

This has been very entertaining. Now I really see why people are so into the debates I have with this clown. :D

Peace

Kinda makes you wonder how lawyers represented "democracy" under the English MONARCHY.
Hmmm...does that mean "Kill the Umpire" was a chorus sung by hordes of rats so that only coaches with their goofy versions of rules would rule baseball?

Hell, I was just making a joke. I didn't know it was going to spark a Shakespearian debate.
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_18_2.gif

Sorry Steve....Didn't mean to start a debate...I'm just proud of my profession...but to be fair, I can laugh at a good lawyer joke too...For instance, I'm OTFLMAO at your smiley icon...

Whaddaya call 10,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?




jest testin' jest testin' :D

1) chum

2) a good start

See...both of those answers, Steve, are funny...

A good start?

Did you hear that the post office has discontinued all stamps that have the likeness of a lawyer on it? Too many people complained they didn't know which side to spit on.

There, I CAN take the stick out of my a$$ and laugh at myself.:)

My personal favorite (and being an attorney I can use this one) is Why are lawyers never attacked by sharks? Professional courtesy

Or, of course, there's always "What's the difference between a lawyer and a carp? One's a bottom-dwelling scum sucker...the other's a fish!"

BlueLawyer and Lawump were walking back to their cars after a game when a really hot MILF walked passed them. Lawump turned to gaze at the MILF for a second and then turned back to BlueLawyer and said:

"Man, I would really like to $crew her."

BlueLawyer looked at Lawump and replied:

"Out of what?"


Tim.

Now THAT is funny!

I don't care who you are, that's funnn.... oh, somebody else keeps saying that. Sorry !:o




Doug

We have a winner...hands down.

What's the difference between a rooster and a lawyer?

A rooster clucks defiance..........

Two of my favorites
 

Other than the MILF joke . . .

1. The plumber, doctor and lawyer were all having a barbecue at the doctor's house. All had their dogs with them. After a few beers, the trio begins to brag about how smart their dogs are.

The plumber said: "I have the smartest dog in the world! Do your thing Fido!"

Fido obeyed his master- dug under the doctor's house and within ten minutes, had re-plumbed the house.

"Good boy, Fido!" said the plumber, and threw Fido a dog biscuit.

"That's nothing," said the doctor. "I have the world's smartest dog. Go, Rover!"

Rover leaps the fence, where the doctor's neighbor is having a heart attack. Rover opens the man's chest and within eight minutes, has performed completely successful open-heart surgery. The neighbor is weak but recovering.

"Good boy, Rover!" said the doctor, and threw Rover a dog biscuit.

The lawyer is now laughing, and annoying the plumber and doctor.

"What's so funny? Your dog hasn't done squat!" said the angry doctor.

The lawyer composes himself enough to say, "You boys don't know from smart. Go, Spot!"

Spot gets up, fornicates the other two dogs and takes their biscuits.

2. Good news: a busload of lawyers just went over a cliff.
Bad news: there were three empty seats.

Strikes and outs!