What's the Call? Base on Balls

[MajorDave]

Had this one today. Catcher is batter, draws BOB, heads to first and as he is approaching first the coach at third base box yells across diamond for a certain player to run as courtesy/speed up runner. So the batter-runner turns and heads toward dugout but does not enter, takes his helmet off at doorway to dugout while courtesy runner essentially blocks batter-runner from entering dugout and they bump in to each other. Opposing head coach starts yelling that batter-runner is out as he abandoned first. Base umpire signals out then reverses after asking if batter-runner entered dugout and plate umpire signals that he did not and that it was essentially a dead ball due to BOB. Defensive coach goes semi-ballistic and both coaches argue with plate umpire resulting in no ejections, batter-runner putting helmet back on and touching first followed by time-out and courtesy runner taking his place on first. Was this the right call-NFHS game.

Any comments? Suggestions. Yes a messed up situation but it worked out as defensive team wound up winning big.

[DG]

This is not abandonement. Abandonement is for runners who have reached 1B and abandon a following base. This is desertion. Desertion is for a runner who does not touch 1B and instead "progresses a reasonable distance toward his dugout or defensive position, and indicates no intent to reassert his status as a runner has abandoned hsi effor to run the bases. The cause of his actions (e.g., ignorance or apathy) is irrelevant." Call him out.

Third base coach, and the players will learn a lesson on desertion and and it should never happen again.

[SAump]

"courtesy runner essentially blocks batter-runner from entering dugout and they bump in to each other."

The ball is live until the baserunner reaches first base and an umpire signals time to allow the substitution. Once baserunner is headed for the dugout, the defense may tag him OUT before he returns to first base.

The courtesy runner never properly entered the ballgame. Call the baserunner OUT on the interference at the dugout entrance. A coach or teammate is not allowed to make contact with a baserunner who mentally tripped-UP and entered DBT by mistake.

[BigUmp56]

DG gave you a combination of the ruling by two definitive resources. I don't believe that Evans directly address's desertion, but he does address abandonment. That's where the wording "progresses a reasonable distance" came from. The J/R is much more clear on how to handle desertion. If you want to start coaching players, even at the "subvarsity" level how to legally run the bases, go for it. It's not something I would do though, ever.


J/R

By rule, a Batter-Runner cannot be out for abandoning before touching (or passing) first base. However, a Batter-Runner who aborts an advance toward first base before touching (or passing) such base and reaches his bench, dugout, dugout steps, or defensive position is out because of his desertion. Desertion typically occurs when a third strike is not caught and the defense neglects tagging the B/R or first base. Although improbable, desertion can also occur an award (e.g., after ball four after the B/R goes directly to his dugout in favor of a pinch-runner) or a batted ball.


I think SA hit on a good point. While I don't think we can call this interference, I do think we should possibly issue a bench warning for the CR coming out of the dugout on a live ball. Just a thought.


Tim.

[DG]

Originally Posted by SAump

"courtesy runner essentially blocks batter-runner from entering dugout and they bump in to each other."

The ball is live until the baserunner reaches first base and an umpire signals time to allow the substitution. Once baserunner is headed for the dugout, the defense may tag him OUT before he returns to first base.

The courtesy runner never properly entered the ballgame. Call the baserunner OUT on the interference at the dugout entrance. A coach or teammate is not allowed to make contact with a baserunner who mentally tripped-UP and entered DBT by mistake.

The batter-runner can not be tagged out before reaching 1B on a BOB. There is no interference. Please quote the rule by which "a coach or teammate is not allowd to make contact with a baserunner who mentally tripped-up and entered DBT my mistake."

This is a simple case of desertion and the BU made the right call.

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by DG

The batter-runner can not be tagged out before reaching 1B on a BOB. There is no interference. Please quote the rule by which "a coach or teammate is not allowd to make contact with a baserunner who mentally tripped-up and entered DBT my mistake."

This is a simple case of desertion and the BU made the right call.

I wasn't clear as to whether the batter-runner actually made
it to the bag, so I guess i just ASSummed that he did. If he did not,
I agree with the desertion theory.

[SAump]

FED rules: Can the defense tag the runner after passing first on a BOB award? Yes

"The batter-runner can not be tagged out before reaching 1B on a BOB."

I agree with both of these statements but these are not the issue at hand.

"Please quote the rule by which "a coach or teammate is not allowed to make contact with a baserunner who mentally tripped-up and entered DBT my mistake."

I thought that it was interference. Can a baserunner run into his basecoach and scramble to base safely? Maybe. Can the basecoach grab a baserunner in DBT and push him back toward first? NO, he may not assist a baserunner.

"This is a simple case of desertion and the BU made the right call."

Half right, OUT for desertion, and half wrong, the BU made the right call. I disagree with allowing the runner to reach first base after this scenario. Prior to abandonment, the defense may tag the runner out. Now we have desertion in this case once the runner reached DBT. But prior to the desertion, may the defense tag the runner out once he veers toward DBT? I would make that call. Do I wait for the defense to leave the field after him or appeal the AWOL at first base?

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by MajorDave

Opposing head coach starts yelling that batter-runner is out as he abandoned first. Base umpire signals out then reverses after asking if batter-runner entered dugout and plate umpire signals that he did not and that it was essentially a dead ball due to BOB.
Any comments? Suggestions. Yes a messed up situation but it worked out as defensive team wound up winning big.

Batter runner never entered the dugout, therefore no abandonment.
Essentially a dead ball? Only dead if time was called by an umpire
for the purpose of entering courtesy runner. If time was not called,
why did the defense not simply tag the runner while he was off
of the base? It is the offense's responsibility to know whether time
has been granted before replacing a runner.

[nickrego]

FED 2-4-2
...A base on balls is an award of first base if a batter receives four such balls. The batter must go immediately to first base before time-out is called.

I am having trouble figuring out why everyone thinks a BOB in FED is a dead ball ? I also can not find a reference to the ball becoming dead due to a batter receiving 4 pitched balls in section 5. (this was not an award of 1st)

FED 8-4-2 p.
after at least touching first base, leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base;
NOTE: Any runner, after reaching first base, who leaves the baseline heading for the dugout or his defensive position believing that there is no further play, shall be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases.

So, based on what I found in the rules, abandonment doesn't come into effect until after a runner has reached 1st base. I also couldn't find the term 'desertion' in reference to a runner giving up on running the bases.

Unless there is another rule out there that I have overlooked, an umpire doesn't really have a reason to call the batter out. This situation isn't really covered in the rules. Should we just call time, and instruct the batter to go to first before he is replaced by the courtesy runner ? Go ahead and bang him out as a penalty to the offensive team for removing the defense's ability to put the runner out after he reached 1st (many teams throw down to 1st on a BOB in case the batter overruns, steps off the bag to take an immediate lead, or to thwart an attempt to break for second base with a runner on 3rd) ?

[BigUmp56]

Nick:

I don't believe you'll find the term 'desertion' in any rule book. What you'll find is that the J/R covers this as being similar to abandonment. While the J/R was written to be used as a suplemental to OBR it is often used as a suplemental to FED as well. I don't know what Steve was thinking when he mentioned the ball was dead on a BOB. We all know that even though it's an award it's a live ball award.


J/R

By rule, a Batter-Runner cannot be out for abandoning before touching (or passing) first base. However, a Batter-Runner who aborts an advance toward first base before touching (or passing) such base and reaches his bench, dugout, dugout steps, or defensive position is out because of his desertion. Desertion typically occurs when a third strike is not caught and the defense neglects tagging the B/R or first base. Although improbable, desertion can also occur an award (e.g., after ball four after the B/R goes directly to his dugout in favor of a pinch-runner) or a batted ball.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

. I don't know what Steve was thinking when he mentioned the ball was dead on a BOB. We all know that even though it's an award it's a live ball award.

The dead ball I was referring to was on an intentional base on balls, as in "Mr. Umpire, put him on." "Time, go to first base."

In 8-1-1c a distinction is made between award and a fourth ball called, that is what I was referring to.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Besides, I thought only Smitty awarded first base on a base on balls. You know, "Ball four, take your base!!!"

Most of us do not "award" first base on the call of ball four, that is my point. Even though, as Rich pointed out, a walk is "technically" an award.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by nickrego

FED 2-4-2
...A base on balls is an award of first base if a batter receives four such balls. The batter must go immediately to first base before time-out is called.

I am having trouble figuring out why everyone thinks a BOB in FED is a dead ball ? I also can not find a reference to the ball becoming dead due to a batter receiving 4 pitched balls in section 5. (this was not an award of 1st)

Nick,

I don't think anybody thinks a base on balls as a result of the batter receiving 4 pitched ball is a dead ball.

When people think award, they usually are thinking of the dumbed-down FED rule 2-4-3, which allows a team to just call for an intentional walk, without the 4 wide ones. This is what I was referring to.

Also, apparently it really is an award of 1st when 4 pitched balls are called.

[Rich Ives]

And then the MLBUM is contradicted by JEA:


The MLBUM is the official MLB interpretation and is the one that counts.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

And then the MLBUM is contradicted by JEA:


The MLBUM is the official MLB interpretation and is the one that counts.

In major league baseball, of course.