Question on Awards with Tagging up

[mcrowder]

PWL, I see you completely ignored my question. Because you couldn't possibly have an answer that is consistent with your incorrect ruling and still makes sense.

The book makes no mention of the umpire's need to determine whether bases were attained legally or illegally, nor does it mention the need to "erase" part of a base award if a retouch is required.

This has come up in clinics before and unanimously the answer is that the player is simply (simple because it says nearly exactly this in the book) awarded 2 bases from WHERE HE IS at the time of the throw.

Let's give it another hypothetical that illustrates your solution as wrong. R1 starts on first, tags legally, passes 2nd base, coach is then yelling BACK BACK, so he returns, missing 2nd, but is between 1st and 2nd when F9 throws the ball out of play. The last "legally acquired base" in your vernacular (not to be found in a rulebook), is SECOND base - but he's between 1st and 2nd at TOT. The proper award is 3rd base. You would award home by your logic. Clearly this is also wrong.

[midtnblu]

Case Book 8.2.5

Ruling: A runner may not return to a base left too soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead. Upon proper appeal, R1 shall be called out. If no appeal is made, R1 will be awarded 3B.


If R1 was headed back and was between 1B and 2B, the return is allowed and the award is 3B.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by midtnblu

Case Book 8.2.5

Ruling: A runner may not return to a base left too soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead. Upon proper appeal, R1 shall be called out. If no appeal is made, R1 will be awarded 3B.


If R1 was headed back and was between 1B and 2B, the return is allowed and the award is 3B.

Beautiful work. Thanks.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by midtnblu

Case Book 8.2.5

Ruling: A runner may not return to a base left too soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead. Upon proper appeal, R1 shall be called out. If no appeal is made, R1 will be awarded 3B.


If R1 was headed back and was between 1B and 2B, the return is allowed and the award is 3B.

Also, NAPBL 3.11 Play 2: (paraphrased) R1, Leaves on pitch; fly ball caught; is between 2nd and 3rd when throw to frist goes out of play. Ruling: Runner is awarded third (two bases from his original base). However, while the ball is dead, he must return to and touch first. (additional parts of the ruling deleted)

[UMP25]

Folks, some clarification here.

From the MLBUM (verbatim, emphasis original)...

5.10 - Award made from original base after catch

A runner who is forced to return to a base after a catch must retouch his original base even though he may have been awarded additional bases on the play. The runner may retouch while the ball is dead (provided he does so before reaching his next base--see Section 5.11), and the award is then made from his original base. (See Casebook comments following Official Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)

Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught. Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into the dugout. Runner is between second and third when the wild throw is made.

Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw). However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base. Furthermore, because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first. However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base).

As you can see, PWL, the initial award is, indeed, home. This is also the same ruling in NCAA.


--Randy

[UmpJM]

Gentlemen,

An interesting discussion (other than all the "noise"). I believe there are (at least) two schools of thought on the proper ruling in regards to the original situation posed in this thread - and that's just under OBR. FED adds its own unique twist to the situation.

Since, in the original situation posed by TussAgee11, the throw which went out of play was made by an outfielder on a ball hit to the outfield, it is "black letter law" (in both FED and OBR) that the award of two bases is a "Time of Throw" (TOT) award.

So, why on earth did I say...

The award in this case is two bases from his "original" or TOP base - so, you award him 3B.

in my initial post on this thread?

Well, primarily because of the following passage from J/R under the discussion of TOT Award(s) (my emphasis):

If a runner obviously has failed to retouch his base before advancing, then a base he has touched or passed is not acknowledged when determining the bases awarded after an overthrow. Hence, such runner's occupied base (from which the award would originate) is the time-of-pitch (or retouch) base (see example 9 below).

...

9----- R1, one out, hit and run. The stealing runner, believing there are two outs, continues toward third base after a fly ball is batted to right field. The right fielder catches the ball, but his throw to first gets by and rolls into a dugout: even though R1 is past second at TOT, first base is acknowledged at the occupied base at TOT, and R1 is awarded third base.

Now, this interpretation from J/R seems quite consistent with the NAPBL ruling paraphrased by Bob Jenkins (post #35 on this thread) while it is materially different from the MLBUM ruling quoted by UMP25 (post #42).

So what is the proper ruling? In the BRD, Carl endorses the J/R ruling and recommends "disavowal" of the MLBUM ruling. He goes on to add the following note:

Note 436: I checked with several of my acquaintances, including two professional umpires. Not one had ever heard of any umpire enforcing the above (MLBUM) interpretation. One pro said he'd never even heard of the interpretation -- but he spoke on condition of anonymity. (grin)

This makes eminent sense to me. After all, even under the MLBUM ruling, if the runner does go back and retouch his base, the origin of the award magically becomes his "original" or TOP base. If he doesn't, he's going to be liable to an appeal. If he fails to retouch and the defense doesn't appeal, they really ought to learn the game a little better.

Now, if the infraction is not "obvious", the MLBUM ruling makes sense to me.

A couple of other points that came up in the discussion...

I believe TussAgee11's initial question was whether or not the runner's "retouch" base counted as one of the two bases awarded. It does not & I'm pretty sure he figured that out.

It was suggested that the origin of the award was based on the last legally acquired base. There is nothing to support such a notion in the rules or any recognized interpretation manual; there is quite a bit to support the principle that a runner who has reached/passed a base is considered to have acquired it legally until/unless the defense properly appeals.

The question was raised as to whether the defense would lose their chance for a subsequent appeal if the throw which went out of play was construed to be part of an unmistakeable but ill-fated attempt at a continuous action appeal of the runner's failure to retouch. After all, they attempted an appeal and "erred" by throwing the ball out of play. They have not and will still have the opportunity to appeal (assuming the runner does not correct his infraction while the ball is dead) when the ball is again made live.

The FED ruling on the play is materially different from the OBR ruling in the situation where the runner liable for appeal on his failure to retouch has reached/passed a succeeding base and is unable to return past that base before the ball becomes dead. In FED, the runner cannot correct his failure to retouch in this case and is liable to be called out on appeal even if he goes back and retouches while the ball is dead.

Unless the umpire judges that the fielder intentionally threw the ball out of play in order to prevent the runner from retouching and the runner was attempting to return. Then his award is two bases beyond his TOP base.

JM

[UMP25]

All right, children. Enough is enough. Let's cut the immature crap. Leave the childish name-calling and insults to the players. Personally, I'm getting sick of reading this.

Umpires should be above this.

[UMP25]

This is the frickin' Internet, Steve; and BTW, I've had plenty of lies told about me in cyberspace. I just ignore them. They're not worth my time, no matter how despicable they are.

With all due respect, Steve, this thread isn't about the little pissing contest between you and PWL. Perhaps you can take it elsewhere.

[SanDiegoSteve]

With all due respect, UMP25, we all tried to help PWL learn something, to which he turned it into a personal attack. I do not start personal attacks, but I don't shy away from conflicts which others start.

I want people out here in "cyberspace" to know when someone is telling lies about me.

As far as this thread goes, it has apparently outlived its usefullness. The question has been answered, even though certain people still may not understand it.

[mcrowder]

Steve, don't feed the troll.

[TussAgee11]

So we are saying that in FED the player gets awards based off the TOP? That can't be right. A double to the outfield, runner on first, outfielder throws the ball in and it goes out of play, and I'm giving that runner on first 3rd even though he may have been between 2nd and 3rd at the time of the throw?

Then we look at some other rule books, and we can agree that in the above situation he gets home?

Sounds like just another difference of rulebooks to me.

And guys, take this pissing contest elsewhere. This thread and forum is to valuable for that stuff. Thanks.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by PWL

Hey Randy,

Do you have anything with FED in the case for which we are talking about.

What they have added into it and the ruling Bob Jenkins gave was award 3B and then defense make the proper appeal. This is just the way I have always believed FED to be.

Sorry, I can't post on anything without those two trying to do a bait and switch.

I don't have the NFHS book handy, so I'll defer to someone who does at the moment, like Bob J. mentioned earlier. NCAA and OBR I tend to know like the back of my hand, so it's easier to explain this play under those rules. Plus, NCAA and OBR are the same on most of their rules, whereas NFHS is different, to say the least.

This morning alone, I heard from two FED umps who gave me radically different answers to what the ruling would be under NFHS. One of these gentlemen is an assignor, but his answer seems way off.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by UMP25

I don't have the NFHS book handy, so I'll defer to someone who does at the moment, like Bob J. mentioned earlier. NCAA and OBR I tend to know like the back of my hand, so it's easier to explain this play under those rules. Plus, NCAA and OBR are the same on most of their rules, whereas NFHS is different, to say the least.

This morning alone, I heard from two FED umps who gave me radically different answers to what the ruling would be under NFHS. One of these gentlemen is an assignor, but his answer seems way off.

It's the same. 2 bases from the position of the runners at the Time Of The Throw. There is no mention of "legally attained bases" or any such wording in any code of rules concerning a ball being thrown out of play. The runner, having acquired 2nd base at the Time Of The Throw, is awarded home base. It is his responsibility to retouch any missed base(s). If he does not retouch, he may be called out upon proper appeal. This is a recording......

[midtnblu]

EDIT---PWL, this was supposed to go before yours...

but....a runner cannot return to a base to re-touch if he has already reached a succeeding base at the time the ball went dead... Fed 5.2.2.b & 8.2.5

And fed casebook 8.2.5 Sitch A
R1 on first, no outs, B2 hits long fly ball over head of F8. R1 thinks it will fall in for a hit and attempts to advance to third. However F8 makes the catch. F8 throws to first but the ball goes into DBT. R1, who is attempting to return to first base, is between second and third when the ball goes dead.

RULING : A runner may not return to a base that he left too soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead, or if he advances and touches a succeeding base after the ball went dead. Upon proper appeal, R1 shall be called out, If no proper appeal, is made by the defense, R1 will be awarded third base.

What confuses me is...and hopefully others....

If no appeal, why give him only third if he had reached second (legally or illegally) at TIME OF THROW.

It would make more sense if we had either OUT on appeal or HOME on award.

And what is the proper mechanic for denying a runner to return to a base after the ball has gone dead?

"Hey buddy, I know you left early but you can't go back now. I'm awarding you this base, but if they appeal, you're OUT."

[SanDiegoSteve]

Yes, my mistake. Once the runner touched 2nd base, it is too late for him to retouch 1st. He is awarded home, and is subject to being called out on appeal. So he is better off not trying to return and just keep going home and hope the defense didn't see the missed base. FED 8-2-5 and OBR 7.10 (b) (2) and interpretation Play (a).

The award is still 2 bases from his position, which was 2nd base.