Out of play on 3-1 move (FED)

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by nickrego

I think you have to consider the step / feint to 3rd base as stepping off / disengaging the Rubber for the sake of consistency, and here is why…

If a pitcher, while engaged with the Rubber, spins and steps towards 2nd base, and either throws or feints to 2nd base, isn’t the pitcher considered having stepped off / disengaged the Rubber ? YES.

The pitcher didn’t step “back” off the Rubber with the Pivot Foot in this case either. They stepped towards 2nd with the Non-Pivot foot, just as it has been described stepping towards 3rd with the Non-Pivot foot to throw or feint. If a pitcher made this move to 2nd, and then over threw to 1st into DBT, you’d awards 2 bases. So why would 3rd base be any different ?

Nick,

I reread your post.

In your example of the pitcher turning toward 2nd and throwing to 1st, are you saying he does this all in one motion? If so, I'd call a balk on the basis that he is not stepping directly toward the base to which he's throwing. I.E. He can't step toward 2nd and throw to 1st.

What I think you are saying is that he steps toward 2nd, fakes, and then, when that is completed, initiates a throw to 1st. Is that it?

In this latter case, I would consider the pitcher as an infielder, whether or not his foot happened to still be in contact with the rubber. I think FED would not, however, based on the casebook play.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[mcrowder]

If pitcher steps toward third and doesn't throw, he has essentially made himself an infielder. It's not like you're going to let him pitch from here, Right?

[SanDiegoSteve]

The pitcher is considered to be on the rubber when doing the 3rd to 1st move. He is not to be considered "disengaged" from the rubber, and is not considered a fielder for the purpose of this play.

Here is the NAPBL interpretation:

"It is legal for a right-handed pitcher to begin a pick-off move to first base by first moving his pivot foot in the direction of third base provided that he makes a legal step toward first base with his non-pivot foot before throwing there and provided that the move is continuous and without interruption. A pitcher who makes such a pick-off move is considered to be in contact with the rubber when he makes his throw to first base."

FED concurrs by the way. Case Book 6-2-4 SITUATION C. The pitcher can feint toward 3rd, turn and throw to first. If he throws the ball out of play the award is only one base, because he is not considered to have disengaged the rubber unless he first removes his pivot foot and steps backward off the rubber to be disengaged. He cannot feint to 3rd, turn and feint to first. This is a balk.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The pitcher is considered to be on the rubber when doing the 3rd to 1st move. He is not to be considered "disengaged" from the rubber, and is not considered a fielder for the purpose of this play.

Here is the NAPBL interpretation:

"It is legal for a right-handed pitcher to begin a pick-off move to first base by first moving his pivot foot in the direction of third base provided that he makes a legal step toward first base with his non-pivot foot before throwing there and provided that the move is continuous and without interruption. A pitcher who makes such a pick-off move is considered to be in contact with the rubber when he makes his throw to first base."

FED concurrs by the way. Case Book 6-2-4 SITUATION C. The pitcher can feint toward 3rd, turn and throw to first. If he throws the ball out of play the award is only one base, because he is not considered to have disengaged the rubber unless he first removes his pivot foot and steps backward off the rubber to be disengaged. He cannot feint to 3rd, turn and feint to first. This is a balk.

So, pitchers who make this move MUST complete the throw to 1st or be guilty of a balk?

I've seen that play hundreds of times and not once have I ever seen it called a balk.

Interesting, though. I was not aware of that NAPBL ruling although I'm sure I've read it at some time or another. Still, something seems wrong. Are you claiming this NAPBL ruling has specifically to do with the infamous 3-1 move?

Hmmm ... maybe we're only to consider the pitcher in contact with the rubber IF he should throw the ball out-of-play. But, should not apply the standard balk rule that states a pitcher cannot fake a throw to 1st if in contact with the rubber.

That would be illogical and inconsistent.

Or, maybe I'm completely confused ... which is much more likely.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[David Emerling]

SanDiegoSteve,

I'm glad you made those citations. I'm also glad I brought up this play because clearly, I have some major misconceptions about this.

I guess what we're actually seeing with the 3-1 play is that the pitcher fakes to 3rd, then turns around rapidly to see if he has a play on R1. If not, he does nothing. Supposedly, this is not a balk. (Although a pitcher who turns rapidly toward 1st and makes no throw would be consider to have balked, whether faking a throw or not - true?)

If, on the other hand, he fakes to 3rd, turns around rapidly to see if he has a play on R1, fakes the throw, then it is a balk.

Maybe this analysis revolves the conflict.

Although a pitcher who turns rapidly toward 1st and makes no throw would be consider to have balked, whether faking a throw or not - true?

Hmmm ...

Thanks!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[BigUmp56]

Dave:

I believe that you and Steve are discussing two different moves. The move that Steve is talking about, which is covered by the NAPBL is commonly refferred to as the "jab step."


J/R


“Jab" Step (of the pivot foot): In cases of a right-handed pitcher throwing to first, or a left-handed pitcher throwing to third, or any pitcher throwing to second, a pitcher can take a "jab" or "stutter" step with his pivot foot before stepping to the base with his free foot. The motion of the "stutter" step and the resulting step of the free foot must be fluid and continuous; if the two motions are not continuous, there is a balk. Of course, the latter step must bring the free foot at, and nearer to, the pickoff base.

So, on the jab step the pitcher is still considered to be engaged as I understand it and must complete the throw to first. Now what I think your talking about is the "wheel" move where the free foot for a right handed pitcher lands toward third and then the turn is made to first. This would disengage the pitcher and a feign to first would now be legal.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

You are correct Tim. I misread the NAPBL interpretation. But in FED, he is still considered on his plate on the wheel play.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Dave:

I believe that you and Steve are discussing two different moves. The move that Steve is talking about, which is covered by the NAPBL is commonly refferred to as the "jab step."


J/R


“Jab" Step (of the pivot foot): In cases of a right-handed pitcher throwing to first, or a left-handed pitcher throwing to third, or any pitcher throwing to second, a pitcher can take a "jab" or "stutter" step with his pivot foot before stepping to the base with his free foot. The motion of the "stutter" step and the resulting step of the free foot must be fluid and continuous; if the two motions are not continuous, there is a balk. Of course, the latter step must bring the free foot at, and nearer to, the pickoff base.

So, on the jab step the pitcher is still considered to be engaged as I understand it and must complete the throw to first. Now what I think your talking about is the "wheel" move where the free foot for a right handed pitcher lands toward third and then the turn is made to first. This would disengage the pitcher and a feign to first would now be legal.


Tim.

I think you're right, Tim.

At first, I thought Steve was citing something that specifically had to do with the 3-1 move. I was thinking, "Dang! I don't ever recall reading that." But now I see that you're correct - his citation is only addressing the "jab step."

So, Tim, do you disagree with the FED ruling as stated in casebook play 6.1.5.

Also, I notice that Steve's citation of FED 6-2-4 SITUATION C does not jive, verbatim, with my 2006 version of that caseplay.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[dddunn3d]

SanDiegoSteve,

The move NAPBL is mentioning is when the RH F1, in order to make a strong throw, "jabs" the ground with his pivot foot a few inches towards 3B, then makes a step towards 1B with his non-pivot foot and throws. This is not a feint. He must throw with this move or it's a balk.

The feint to 3B involves the non-pivot foot first (stepping towards 3B), then wheeling around to check R1. Once F1 feints to 3B, he is considered to have disengaged, no matter where his feet actually are in relation to the rubber. There is no balk.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by dddunn3d

SanDiegoSteve,

The feint to 3B involves the non-pivot foot first (stepping towards 3B), then wheeling around to check R1. Once F1 feints to 3B, he is considered to have disengaged, no matter where his feet actually are in relation to the rubber. There is no balk.

dddunn3d,

Certainly agree with your comments regarding the "jab step" move.

However, I'm a little confused by your statement quoted above in light of the following language from OBR 8.05(c):

8.05(c) ...It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal. However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion "wheels" and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk.

Can you clarify?

JM

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by dddunn3d

SanDiegoSteve,

The move NAPBL is mentioning is when the RH F1, in order to make a strong throw, "jabs" the ground with his pivot foot a few inches towards 3B, then makes a step towards 1B with his non-pivot foot and throws. This is not a feint. He must throw with this move or it's a balk.

The feint to 3B involves the non-pivot foot first (stepping towards 3B), then wheeling around to check R1. Once F1 feints to 3B, he is considered to have disengaged, no matter where his feet actually are in relation to the rubber. There is no balk.

Exactly!

The only thing I would add is that OBR considers it a balk if the pitcher fakes to 3rd while in contact with the rubber -and- maintains contact with the rubber -and- pivots around toward first while still in contact with the rubber. It doesn't matter if he feints or throws in this case. It's a balk by interpretation.

I imagine, the reason OBR considers this a balk is that they view this style of maneuvering as being an all-in-one type of maneuver - which is strictly forbidden. And I understand why they are concerned about this. To be fair to R1, F1 should not be allowed to make a move toward 3rd and, all in one fluid motion, continue making a move toward 1st.

Under OBR, the pitcher cannot make a very token and abbreviated motion toward 3rd as a prelude to throwing toward 1st unless he breaks contact with the rubber.

In any case, if F1 executes the 3-1 move legally, there is not going to be any instance of a one base award should F1 throw the ball out-of-play when when throwing to 1st. He's an infielder and it has nothing to do with whether he stepped BACK off the rubber or not. He's already made a play to 3rd.

I think I'm finally understanding the FED view on this play. They allow the pitcher to execute this maneuver while maintaining contact with the rubber OR while not maintaining contact. Either way is legal.

However, if the pitcher remains in contact with the rubber the pitching regulations apply. If he feints toward 1st ... it's a balk. If he throws the ball into DBT, it's a one base award.

If the pitcher does not remain in contact with the rubber and he feints toward 1st ... legal! If he throws the ball into DBT, it's a two base award.

It think what I've written above is all accurate and brings this to a conclusion.

If I have some element of this incorrect, somebody please correct me.

Thanks!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by dddunn3d

The feint to 3B involves the non-pivot foot first (stepping towards 3B), then wheeling around to check R1. Once F1 feints to 3B, he is considered to have disengaged, no matter where his feet actually are in relation to the rubber. There is no balk.

I disagree. The pro interps say that the pitcher must break contact, not that the move itself is considered breaking contact. He still has to remove his foot from the rubber. That's why it's written into the rules and their interpretations.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

So, pitchers who make this move MUST complete the throw to 1st or be guilty of a balk?

I've seen that play hundreds of times and not once have I ever seen it called a balk.

Because 99.99% of the time F1 comes off the rubber.

If F1 comes off the rubber, he's now an infielder. I suppose the rule could be clearer: "From the rubber, the pitcheer can pitch, step back, or disengage as part of a throw or feint a throw to a base." I would have thought the bold part would be clear to all.

In the .01% of the time F1 does not remove his foot from the rubber, he can throw to first in FED, but not in NCAA or OBR. He can't feint to first in FED because he didn't disengage.

[/QUOTE]

[cowbyfan1]

I look at it this way. If he steps towards 3rd and does not step off it is a feint as he is still in contact with the rubber. If at that point he spins and does not throw to first, keeping the foot in contact with the ruber, then I have a balk. If he does throw towards first and tosses it into DB area 1 base award.

If he steps towards 3rd and in doing so pulls the foot away from the rubber and then turns and steps towards 1st and does not throw I have nothing. If he throws and it goes into DB area, 2 bases.

The whole point is is the foot actually in CONTACT with the rubber. Someone could bring up a jump spin (reality foot is off rubber, technically it still is) but he is not doing that it is a clear step, not a jumping motion.

[mbyron]

Our local interpreter told me that, when pitcher feints to 3B, he disengages. Calling a balk on the "third-to-first" double feint (because it's a feint to 1B from the rubber) is a BS call and not an option.

So, under that interpretation I would have to award 2 bases on an overthrow to 1B after a feint to 3B.