Out of play on 3-1 move (FED)

[David Emerling]

I want to discuss a certain casebook play: FED 6.1.5

It says:
With R1 on third base and R2 on first base, F1 steps and feints to third and then steps and throws to first attempting to pick off R2. The throw goes into dead-ball territory. The offensive team's coach wants a balk to be called because the pitcher never threw the ball toward third. RULING: When the pitcher stepped off the pitching plate in his feint to third, he became an infielder. Hence, when his throw goes into dead-ball territory, all runners awarded two bases. R1 gets home and R2 gets third. Had F1 stayed on the pitching plate during his feint to third and his throw to first, all runners would be awarded one base. R1 would get home and R2 would get second. This would not be a balk as F1 made a legal feint and a legal pickoff attempt with no prior motion to pitch.

I want to focus on the base awards.

Everybody knows that if a pitcher makes a pickoff attempt while in contact with the rubber and the ball goes into dead-ball territory, all runners are awarded one base.

If the pitcher steps BACK off the rubber prior to the pickoff, all runners would be awarded two bases should the ball go into dead-ball territory.

Any jump turn that causes the pivot foot to break contact with the rubber is not considered a legal disengagement, therefore, any ball thrown into dead-ball territory will be treated the same as if the pitcher were in contact with the rubber. A one base award. This is very common when a right-handed pitcher makes a quick pickoff attempt at first. It is very common for his right foot to break contact with the rubber. But it's still considered "in contact" for the purpose of applying base awards.

OK - having established this - let's go back to the play in the FED casebook.

This case play is claiming that if the pitcher feints toward 3rd (while in contact with the rubber) and then turns and throws to 1st (while stillin contact) that it is only a one base award if the ball is thrown into dead-ball territory.

I disagree with this ruling.

I think that once the pitcher has stepped toward 3rd with a legal feint ... that is considered an event that eliminates the significance of whether his foot is still on the rubber. In my opinion, after the feint, the pitcher is now considered disengaged, whether on or off the rubber. That event is over. The pitcher is now an infielder.

I claim that ANY throw to 1st, after first faking toward 3rd, that results in the ball going into dead-ball territory should always be a two base award. The fact that the pitcher may still have his pivot foot in contact with the rubber while making the second maneuver is completely irrelevent. The play to first was not a direct play. It was the second play. The pitcher cannot remain a pitcher on a second maneuver. The pitching regulations can only apply to the first maneuver; the throw/feint to 3rd.

Again, this is just an opinion of mine and I am curious what others think.

In a 1st and 3rd situation, have you ever seen a pitcher fake toward third then quickly turn toward 1st to see if he can catch R1 leaning? The pitcher neither throws to 3rd nor 1st. This happens all the time!

Would you rule a balk on the pitcher for failing to complete the throw to 1st if you happened to notice that his foot was still on the rubber?

I wouldn't!

Once the pitcher completes a legal maneuver toward 3rd, whether he throws the ball or feints ... he is now just an infielder. The completion of the maneuver is the equivalent of stepping off the rubber.

Now, if the pitcher remains in contact with the rubber and actually makes a throw to 3rd; if the ball should enter dead-ball territory, that would be a one base award. (Ball thrown from in contact with the rubber)

If he steps off the rubber, throws to 3rd, and the ball goes into dead-ball territory; that would be a two base award.

But once the pitcher completes the maneuver (whether feigning or throwing), and continues with a second maneuver, he is now considered an infielder and no longer engaged with the rubber. Only two-base awards are now possible.

The rules regarding whether the pitcher was in contact with the rubber (for the purposes of awarding only one base for a ball thrown into dead-ball territory) assumes that the throw is originating from one of two legal positions, the wind-up or set position. If the pitcher is not in one of the two legal positions (i.e. after faking toward 3rd), the location of his pivot foot is immaterial. He's not a pitcher any more.

Just an opinion.

I'd be curious to see some other opinions.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I think that once the pitcher has stepped toward 3rd with a legal feint ... that is considered an event that eliminates the significance of whether his foot is still on the rubber. In my opinion, after the feint, the pitcher is now considered disengaged, whether on or off the rubber. That event is over. The pitcher is now an infielder.

The pitcher is not an infielder as it is still a balk if he feints a throw to first base.

[ManInBlue]

I think this is a ridiculous scenario. I agree with your point, first of all. Maybe not the entire thought process, but the point.

My point is simply that I'd like to see a pitcher make this move and maintain contact with the rubber. It's pretty close to impossible. And if he does, he probably didn't step toward first, so you have a balk anyway - FED ruling dead ball, the throw is irrelevent.

I don't think this scenario should have been mentioned in the case book, personally. If he steps toward 1B to make that throw, he HAS to disengage the rubber with his right (pivot) foot.

I don't think the feint to 3B in and of itself grants him to be off the rubber. But I do think he must disengage to properly throw to 1B.

editted to add - Your point is quite valid considering F1 can make this feint toward 3B and is not obligated to throw to first - the ONLY way this is legal (the feint to 1B) is if F1 has disengaged. Thus he MUST be an infielder at this point. Somewhere in the process F1 has to have disengaged the rubber.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

My point is simply that I'd like to see a pitcher make this move and maintain contact with the rubber. It's pretty close to impossible. And if he does, he probably didn't step toward first, so you have a balk anyway - FED ruling dead ball, the throw is irrelevent.

It isn't that hard. I just stood up and did it right now.

[JRutledge]

Not sure why this is hard to understand. If a pitcher is allowed to fake to 3rd and to 1st and you do not consider the pitcher a fielder now, then it is a balk. You cannot have it both ways. Either you accept the casebook interpretation or you are going to have to call a balk by your philosophy. I would not make this difficult. The pitcher in this situation is clearly off the rubber so any throw they make is just like any other fielder.

Peace

[DG]

In FED, a pitcher may feint to 3rd and then throw to first with or without disengaging the rubber. In NCAA and OBR if the pitcher does not disengage during the feint to 3B it would be a balk to then throw or feint to 1B. See BRD 362. So in FED it's a one base award if he stays in contact with the rubber and 2 base award if he disengaged before the throw to 1B.

It is difficult to feint to 3B without disengaging, but it can be done.

[David Emerling]

To add to the discussion:

Isn't it true that whenever the rulebook uses the term "disengage the rubber" it always means stepping BACK off the rubber?

There's a difference between "not in contact with the rubber" and "disengaging the rubber."

For instance, a right-handed pitcher is almost always "not in contact with the rubber" when he makes a pickoff attempt at 1st. Yet, for the purposes of applying the rule, since he did not actually "disengage the rubber" (i.e. step BACK), the throw is considered to have occurred from in contact. Apparently, FED doesn't make this distinction - according to the casebook ruling.

In the case we're discussing, the pitcher never really steps BACK and disengages the rubber. So, if we're going to apply the same standard, whether the pitcher breaks contact with the rubber while throwing to 3rd or not, he never really steps BACK and legally "disengages the rubber."

I still maintain the rules that address the issue of whether the pitcher has disengaged the rubber or not assume that the pitcher is starting from one of two legal pitching positions. When a pitcher places his foot on the rubber, he MUST assume either the wind-up or set position.

Once the pitcher has made a pickoff attempt, or a fake attempt, anything he does after that cannot be initiated from either of the two legal pitching positions. So, whether his foot is actually in contact with the rubber or not when making the NEXT play, it can hardly be governed by the rules of the pitcher being IN CONTACT with the rubber.

In my opinion.

Yet, I realize, the FED ruling on this caseplay runs counter to my thinking.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[David Emerling]

Let me try to go through this a bit more methodically. Please jump in if you think you can shed any light on any of the following plays.

All of the plays assume R1 & R3.

Play #1: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes a pickoff attempt on R1. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot foot comes off the rubber.

OBR - Legal

FED - Legal

Play #2: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes a pickoff attempt on R1. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot remains in contact with the rubber.

OBR - Balk

FED - Legal

Play #3: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes no throw since there is no play on R1. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot comes off the rubber.

OBR - Legal

FED - ??? (not sure - open to discussion)

Play #4: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes no throw since there is no play on R1. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot remains in contact with the rubber.

OBR - Balk

FED - ??? (not sure - open to discussion)

Play #5: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes a wild throw that goes into dead-ball territory. While performing this maneuver, F1 remains in contact with the rubber.

OBR - Balk (not sure of the base award. one base for the balk -or- two bases for the ball going into DBT?)

FED - Legal (one base award in accordance with casebook play 6.1.5)

Play #6: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes a wild throw that goes into dead-ball territory. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot comes off the rubber.

OBR - Legal (two base award ... pitcher is an infielder)

FED - ??? (not sure - open to discussion)

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Let me try to go throw this a bit more methodically. Please jump in if you think you can shed any light on any of the following plays.

All of the plays assume R1 & R3.

Play #1: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes a pickoff attempt on R1. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot foot comes off the rubber.

OBR - Legal

FED - Legal

Play #2: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes a pickoff attempt on R1. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot remains in contact with the rubber.

OBR - Balk

FED - Legal

Play #3: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes no throw since there is no play on R1. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot comes off the rubber.

OBR - Legal

FED - ??? (not sure - open to discussion)

Play #4: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes no throw since there is no play on R1. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot remains in contact with the rubber.

OBR - Balk

FED - ??? (not sure - open to discussion)

Play #5: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes a wild throw that goes into dead-ball territory. While performing this maneuver, F1's remains in contact with the rubber.

OBR - Balk (not sure of the base award. one base for the balk -or- two bases for the ball going into DBT?)

FED - Legal (one base award in accordance with casebook play 6.1.5)

Play #6: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes a wild throw that goes into dead-ball territory. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot comes off the rubber.

OBR - Legal (two base award ... pitcher is an infielder)

FED - ??? (not sure - open to discussion)

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

All your rulings are correct. On the ones you question:

3) FED -- Legal

4) FED -- Balk

5) OBR -- Balk -- One base

6) Legal -- two base award.