Out of play on 3-1 move (FED)

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The pitcher is considered to be on the rubber when doing the 3rd to 1st move. He is not to be considered "disengaged" from the rubber, and is not considered a fielder for the purpose of this play.

Here is the NAPBL interpretation:

"It is legal for a right-handed pitcher to begin a pick-off move to first base by first moving his pivot foot in the direction of third base provided that he makes a legal step toward first base with his non-pivot foot before throwing there and provided that the move is continuous and without interruption. A pitcher who makes such a pick-off move is considered to be in contact with the rubber when he makes his throw to first base."

Sorry, I quoted the wrong interpretation here. Dang.

[BigUmp56]

Dave:

I believe that you and Steve are discussing two different moves. The move that Steve is talking about, which is covered by the NAPBL is commonly refferred to as the "jab step."


J/R


“Jab" Step (of the pivot foot): In cases of a right-handed pitcher throwing to first, or a left-handed pitcher throwing to third, or any pitcher throwing to second, a pitcher can take a "jab" or "stutter" step with his pivot foot before stepping to the base with his free foot. The motion of the "stutter" step and the resulting step of the free foot must be fluid and continuous; if the two motions are not continuous, there is a balk. Of course, the latter step must bring the free foot at, and nearer to, the pickoff base.

So, on the jab step the pitcher is still considered to be engaged as I understand it and must complete the throw to first. Now what I think your talking about is the "wheel" move where the free foot for a right handed pitcher lands toward third and then the turn is made to first. This would disengage the pitcher and a feign to first would now be legal.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

You are correct Tim. I misread the NAPBL interpretation. But in FED, he is still considered on his plate on the wheel play.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Dave:

I believe that you and Steve are discussing two different moves. The move that Steve is talking about, which is covered by the NAPBL is commonly refferred to as the "jab step."


J/R


“Jab" Step (of the pivot foot): In cases of a right-handed pitcher throwing to first, or a left-handed pitcher throwing to third, or any pitcher throwing to second, a pitcher can take a "jab" or "stutter" step with his pivot foot before stepping to the base with his free foot. The motion of the "stutter" step and the resulting step of the free foot must be fluid and continuous; if the two motions are not continuous, there is a balk. Of course, the latter step must bring the free foot at, and nearer to, the pickoff base.

So, on the jab step the pitcher is still considered to be engaged as I understand it and must complete the throw to first. Now what I think your talking about is the "wheel" move where the free foot for a right handed pitcher lands toward third and then the turn is made to first. This would disengage the pitcher and a feign to first would now be legal.


Tim.

I think you're right, Tim.

At first, I thought Steve was citing something that specifically had to do with the 3-1 move. I was thinking, "Dang! I don't ever recall reading that." But now I see that you're correct - his citation is only addressing the "jab step."

So, Tim, do you disagree with the FED ruling as stated in casebook play 6.1.5.

Also, I notice that Steve's citation of FED 6-2-4 SITUATION C does not jive, verbatim, with my 2006 version of that caseplay.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Nick,

What I think you are saying is that he steps toward 2nd, fakes, and then, when that is completed, initiates a throw to 1st. Is that it?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Yes, this is what I am refering to.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Also, I notice that Steve's citation of FED 6-2-4 SITUATION C does not jive, verbatim, with my 2006 version of that caseplay.

David,

I was paraphrasing the ruling, I didn't quote it word-for-word.

Here is what it says in my 2005 book (I don't have the 2006):

"He might, while he is on his plate, step toward the occupied third and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher's plate. If F1 steps and feints to first, he must first disengage the pitcher's plate or he is guilty of a balk."

[SanDiegoSteve]

Jim Evans says that the pitcher must break contact with the rubber with the pivot foot on the feint to 3rd on the 3rd to 1st move:

"On the "trick 3rd to 1st" move used by the righthander, the umpire should be especially alert for two criteria:
(1)
the pitcher may not break the back plane of the rubber with his free foot before attempting the feint to 3rd; and
(2)
in his feint to 3rd, he must break contact from the rubber with his pivot foot.
Breaking the plane would be a balk in violation of 8.01(a) and failure to break contact would be a balk in violation of 8.01(c)...not a direct step from the rubber ("while touching his plate")."

I don't see that in the rule 8.05(c) Case Book comments. It says you can't feint to third, and in practically the same motion, wheel and throw to first. It prohibits this because it is practically impossible to step directly to first. But it is possible to feint to third, in contact with the rubber, then maintain contact and step and throw to first. Two separate steps directly toward bases, yet not disengaging the runner.

I will do further research and come back later. I am more confused than I was yesterday, that's for sure.

[UmpJM]

Dave (et al),

It is my understanding that in all rules codes other than FED, a pitcher who tries the "fake to 3B & make a move to 1B" must break contact with the rubber on the feint to 3B or he has balked.

However, under FED rules only, a pitcher is allowed to keep his foot in contact with the rubber on the feint to 3B and then pivot and step & throw to 1B and it is NOT a balk.

So, under FED, if the F1 maintains contact & throws the ball out of play on the move to 1B, runners are awarded one base. If the F1 drags his foot off the rubber & then throws out of play on the throw to 1B, runner(s) are awarded 2 bases.

Now I have no idea why the FED folks have chosen to institute this daring "innovation" in the rules - personally, I wonder if the folks responsible for some of the FED rulings have ever actually seen a baseball game - but, it's their rules & I suppose they can make them whatever they want.

JM

[SanDiegoSteve]

According the MLBUM, the pitcher has to break contact before throwing to first, and according to Evans, before feinting to third.

If J/R has something different I'm going to scream!!!

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

According the MLBUM, the pitcher has to break contact before throwing to first, and according to Evans, before feinting to third.

If J/R has something different I'm going to scream!!!

Steve,

I believe JEA & the MLBUM say exactly the same thing. Namely, that during the feint to 3B and prior to initiating the move to 1B, the F1 must break contact with the rubber or he is properly balked on the continuing move to 1B. Same in NCAA. FED's "a little different". See the BRD #362.

JM

[SanDiegoSteve]

CoachJM,

Here is the confusing part, as the MLBUM says (my emphasis):

"NOTE: With runners on first and third, if a pitcher fakes a throw to third base and then throws the ball to first base, arm motion is not required in the fake to third, although a legal step is required. Also, in the fake to third base, the pitcher must break contact with the rubber before throwing to first base. If the ball is thrown out of play in the throw to first, the pitcher would be considered an infielder for the purpose of the award."

JEA says: ". . .in his feint to 3rd, he must break contact from the rubber with his pivot foot."


See, it is a little different. Which causes me to wonder which is technically correct.

[UmpJM]

Steve,

I believe you are misreading the MLBUM text you bolded as saying 3B rather than 1B.

Mlbum says:

...in the fake to third base, the pitcher must break contact with the rubber ...

JEA says:

...in his feint to 3rd, he must break contact from the rubber with his pivot foot. ...

Sure sounds the same to me. The FED ruling, on the other hand, is a horse.

JM

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

So, pitchers who make this move MUST complete the throw to 1st or be guilty of a balk?

I've seen that play hundreds of times and not once have I ever seen it called a balk.

Because 99.99% of the time F1 comes off the rubber.

If F1 comes off the rubber, he's now an infielder. I suppose the rule could be clearer: "From the rubber, the pitcheer can pitch, step back, or disengage as part of a throw or feint a throw to a base." I would have thought the bold part would be clear to all.

In the .01% of the time F1 does not remove his foot from the rubber, he can throw to first in FED, but not in NCAA or OBR. He can't feint to first in FED because he didn't disengage.

[/QUOTE]

[David Emerling]

Let me try to go through this a bit more methodically. Please jump in if you think you can shed any light on any of the following plays.

All of the plays assume R1 & R3.

Play #1: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes a pickoff attempt on R1. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot foot comes off the rubber.

OBR - Legal

FED - Legal

Play #2: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes a pickoff attempt on R1. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot remains in contact with the rubber.

OBR - Balk

FED - Legal

Play #3: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes no throw since there is no play on R1. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot comes off the rubber.

OBR - Legal

FED - ??? (not sure - open to discussion)

Play #4: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes no throw since there is no play on R1. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot remains in contact with the rubber.

OBR - Balk

FED - ??? (not sure - open to discussion)

Play #5: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes a wild throw that goes into dead-ball territory. While performing this maneuver, F1 remains in contact with the rubber.

OBR - Balk (not sure of the base award. one base for the balk -or- two bases for the ball going into DBT?)

FED - Legal (one base award in accordance with casebook play 6.1.5)

Play #6: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes a wild throw that goes into dead-ball territory. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot comes off the rubber.

OBR - Legal (two base award ... pitcher is an infielder)

FED - ??? (not sure - open to discussion)

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Let me try to go throw this a bit more methodically. Please jump in if you think you can shed any light on any of the following plays.

All of the plays assume R1 & R3.

Play #1: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes a pickoff attempt on R1. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot foot comes off the rubber.

OBR - Legal

FED - Legal

Play #2: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes a pickoff attempt on R1. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot remains in contact with the rubber.

OBR - Balk

FED - Legal

Play #3: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes no throw since there is no play on R1. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot comes off the rubber.

OBR - Legal

FED - ??? (not sure - open to discussion)

Play #4: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes no throw since there is no play on R1. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot remains in contact with the rubber.

OBR - Balk

FED - ??? (not sure - open to discussion)

Play #5: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes a wild throw that goes into dead-ball territory. While performing this maneuver, F1's remains in contact with the rubber.

OBR - Balk (not sure of the base award. one base for the balk -or- two bases for the ball going into DBT?)

FED - Legal (one base award in accordance with casebook play 6.1.5)

Play #6: Pitcher steps toward 3rd, fakes a throw, then spins around toward 1st and makes a wild throw that goes into dead-ball territory. While performing this maneuver, F1's pivot comes off the rubber.

OBR - Legal (two base award ... pitcher is an infielder)

FED - ??? (not sure - open to discussion)

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

All your rulings are correct. On the ones you question:

3) FED -- Legal

4) FED -- Balk

5) OBR -- Balk -- One base

6) Legal -- two base award.