plate ump covering 3rd

[ggk]

R1, base hit to the outfield, i believe the plate ump should cover R1 into 3rd while letting the base ump know same. does the same coverage apply on an infield ball where the runner may have been stealing and is trying to go 1st to third on an infield out or infield error? how about R2 only on an infield out - he waits until the ball is thrown to F3 and then breaks for 3rd. i think PBUC states that base ump has both infield calls, but why wouldn't the plate ump help out in those other situations?? thanks.

[DG]

Originally posted by ggk
R1, base hit to the outfield, i believe the plate ump should cover R1 into 3rd while letting the base ump know same. does the same coverage apply on an infield ball where the runner may have been stealing and is trying to go 1st to third on an infield out or infield error? how about R2 only on an infield out - he waits until the ball is thrown to F3 and then breaks for 3rd. i think PBUC states that base ump has both infield calls, but why wouldn't the plate ump help out in those other situations?? thanks.

BU has plays in the infield when the ball does not leave the infield.

[ggk]

i understand what the book says, but WHY wouldn't the plate ump help out in those other situations?? a base hit to the outfield gives the base ump no call - yet the plate ump helps at 3rd. why not help at 3rd on infield plays.

[briancurtin]

i dont see a reason to

[ggk]

then why does PU help on a ball to the outfield?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Because the BU has all plays on the trailing runner if both the ball and runner are going to third base. If the BU is taking the ball and runner to third, who would make the call on a snap throw behind the BR?

The base ump should handle all plays that stay in the infield. Old school style.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ggk
i understand what the book says, but WHY wouldn't the plate ump help out in those other situations?? a base hit to the outfield gives the base ump no call - yet the plate ump helps at 3rd. why not help at 3rd on infield plays.

At various times, that has been the mechanic. (The "standard" mecahnic has varied between giving BU or PU the call, with the "advanced" mechanic varying between giving the other the call.) It might still be for FED.

You can come up with non-TWPs for either coverage where the "other coverage" would have been better. It's just a compromise of the two-umpire system.

[Tim C]

Sorry for the “long version” answer to your question but here goes:

The “second call” in the infield has been changed several times since 1974.

There are two separate mechanics that hae been used over the years.

Mechanic #1:

R1 and the batter runner is retired before reaching first base safely and R1 continues to advance from 1st base, past 2nd base and heads for 3rd base.

Until 1974 the official “standard mechanic” was that the base umpire would make the call at first base and then using the same basic mechanic that is used to cover a steal of second base by R1 would move across the diamond and make the second call at third base.

Until 1974 the official “advanced mechanic” was that the base umpire would make the call at first base and the Plate umpire would rotate down and take the second call at third base. The Base Umpire would then rotate towards the plate and would have any call that could happen at the plate if R1 was not put out at third and tried to advance.

Starting in 1975 the titles of these two mechanics were reversed.

In 1982 the titles of the mechanics reverted to their original positions.

By 1984 the base umpire no longer rotated home. The plate umpire was responsible for the runner at third and was directed to take any additional play at the plate.

The NAPL recognized in 1995 that the mechanic that took the plate umpire to third was causing problems. Plate umpires were leaving the plate area to beat the runner to third and were not completing their responsibilities concerning the batter runner with views of swipe tags, a defensive players not keeping their feet on the base and running lane violations.

There is now only one accepted mechanic in the NAPL and NCAA books (Oregon, with the NFHS approval, does not use Federation mechanics so I do not know how the NFHS handles this call). The base umpire covers both calls that occur in the R1 advancing plays. If an umpire believes in “angle over distance” then this is the obvious acceptable mechanic.

When the Plate Umpire assists on R1 advancing on a base hit the fact that there is a trailing runner allows the base umpire to not have to over commit to third and have a secondary play occur at second base.

We know that two man umpiring is base on compromise. The people that have developed the mechanics have studied plays and positioning for thousands of games. They have attempt to help cover plays with the best of compromises.

[ggk]

tim c
thanks for the excellent and comprehensive response. i appreciate the long version. obviously this is a scenerio that has been debated for many years.
this board is a great source of info.
G

[TussAgee11]

Thanks Tim, much appreciated read. Certainly all makes sense, except one thing. I know this stuff has been studied, so I'm not challenging that. We all agree angle over distance. So wouldn't a tough tag play at third be easily called by the PU standing at the plate for a swipe tag/runner's lane/pulled foot at 1st for that play, then take 3 or 4 steps towards third for that play? Seems like the BU is really locked out of that play at third, depending on where the grounder is hit of course. Certainly a groundball to F5 would be the toughest for the BU, as he has to stay behind the pitcher's mound, and can't get a good angle on the potential play at third.

Thanks again for the info, I guess I'm just wondering if this has been thought about in the light I bring it up. I'm sure it has, just wondering where my thinking is wrong here.


I am curious what NFHS says about this.

[David B]

Originally posted by TussAgee11
Thanks Tim, much appreciated read. Certainly all makes sense, except one thing. I know this stuff has been studied, so I'm not challenging that. We all agree angle over distance. So wouldn't a tough tag play at third be easily called by the PU standing at the plate for a swipe tag/runner's lane/pulled foot at 1st for that play, then take 3 or 4 steps towards third for that play? Seems like the BU is really locked out of that play at third, depending on where the grounder is hit of course. Certainly a groundball to F5 would be the toughest for the BU, as he has to stay behind the pitcher's mound, and can't get a good angle on the potential play at third.

Thanks again for the info, I guess I'm just wondering if this has been thought about in the light I bring it up. I'm sure it has, just wondering where my thinking is wrong here.


I am curious what NFHS says about this.

I really don't understand the question but from the plate PU is straight lined for the tag at third. There would be no way he could tell if F5 tags him or not especially if R2 slides on the outfield side of the bag.

BU has a great angle for the tag, and can see right through the fielder and the runner etc.,

But, we still like for our PU to take third on the second throw. Its easy for the PU to move toward the mound to see the plays at first and then with a few quick steps be in perfect position for the throw to third which is always going to be a developing play.

As a BU I can cover both, but if my PU calls me off I don't have a problem with that either.

I think that might answer the question but not sure.

Thanks
David

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by ggk
... a base hit to the outfield gives the base ump no call ...

GGK,
The base umpire absolutely has a call. And partners that feel there is no call absolutely worry me.

The base umpire is absolutely responsible for the runner touching first base (one call) and ensuring there is no obstruction with F3 (another call), and possibly any subsequent play made on the batter runner at either first or second base (another call).

Agreeably, on any given play, those calls may not need to be made, but they are absolutely there and they are absolutely the responsibility of the base umpire.

The casual partner that watches the filght of the ball and might wander towards the infield, never button-hooking or paying attention to the Batter-Runner is going to create some major problems when any of those calls NEED TO BE MADE and the base umpire has his back to the play/call.

Two man mechanics are difficult enough without one of the partners deciding that "Well for this play, we're going to use ONE MAN MECHANICS." (Because I don't know my responsibilities and I'm too lazy to do my job.)

In my district, I like to say that the base umpire has the LAST RUNNER ALL THE WAY TO THIRD - and if there is only one runner (BR), he is the LAST runner.

[David B]

Originally posted by Tim C
David B wrote:

"But, we still like for our PU to take third on the second throw."

Must be regional. I seldom ever find an umpire crew that selects to use the "second call at third by the PU" mechanic.

The downside, leaving from the plate area too soon to assure coverage at third and to a lesser degree leaving the plate area uncovered, far out weigh the BU taking both calls.

We recognize that two (and three man in certain sequences) man crews are based on compromise. It just seems "better" to me for the BU to take both calls . . . but obviously even the "powers that be" remain cross threaded on this one mechanic.

I think you're right on the money Tim, probably regional.

The more I've read the last few years the more I've seen going toward the BU taking both, but in our area they still like the PU to take the second play if necessary.
I guess we still prescribe to the "distance does make a difference" mentality.


But I have noticed that the colleges and JUCO's have gone more to the mechanics like you mentioned. I'm sure we'll trickle down to that down the road, but for now ...

THanks
David

[Clint Lawson]

Originally Posted by David B

I really don't understand the question but from the plate PU is straight lined for the tag at third. There would be no way he could tell if F5 tags him or not especially if R2 slides on the outfield side of the bag.

BU has a great angle for the tag, and can see right through the fielder and the runner etc.,

But, we still like for our PU to take third on the second throw. Its easy for the PU to move toward the mound to see the plays at first and then with a few quick steps be in perfect position for the throw to third which is always going to be a developing play.

As a BU I can cover both, but if my PU calls me off I don't have a problem with that either.

I think that might answer the question but not sure.

Thanks
David

David,

I know a lot of people are going to say this is wrong but, like to take the play at 3rd as the plate umpire in foul territory like in three man. That way you can read the ball, runnner and field and umpire the play.

[Justme]

The association that I work high school ball for (California Baseball Umpires Association) says to handle it this way:

#1

2-Man Mechanics
Runner on 1B - Ball hit to infielder
Base umpire takes play at 2nd & 1st

Note: Follow flight of ball; do not turn head too quickly after play at 2nd.

Watch for possible runner interference. Plate umpire should watch play at 2nd before and after pivot man has released the ball. Plate umpire is responsible for interference call after the ball has been released.



#2
2-Man Mechanics
Runner on 2B - Ball hit to infielder and runner attempts to advance to 3rd.
Base umpire will call tag play on runner.

Note: Plate umpire will watch touching of bases by batter-runner for possible appeal play.

Also, if base umpire has the responsibility for a possible trapped ball, the plate umpire must watch for legal tag ups and assist the base umpire on appeal plays.



#3
2-Man Mechanics
Runner on 2B - Ball hit to infielder and throw goes to 1st base

Plate umpire must take play at 3rd base.

Note: If ball is overthrown at 3rd, the plate umpire umpire must cover home plate in the event of a possible play.