What do you allow?

[Pete in AZ]

Hey guys -

I worked a tournament over the past weekend and just got notified that a protest has been filed about one of my calls. I need some help.

This tourney was 18&U and we used pro rules. The only exception was a mercy rule. During the first game, the bench chatter was pretty rude. Most of these guys knew each other and played head games. They were constantly yelling "He's going." "Throw it." "Cut two." and other nonsense. At one point I told them to cool it and the coach told me to show him where they had to stop saying anything. I glared at him and said that I would show him after the game. A few innings later, they started yelling, "Swing" on every pitch when the other team was up. Now, I'll admit that I lost it and walked towards their bench. The coach came out and I told him to knock it off. He just smiled and said that his team was doing nothing wrong. I walked back knowing that I would eject the next person who did it. The first pitch was not even delivered when his bench erupted in "Swing!" The starting pitcher was standing at the opening and laughing. I pointed at him and ejected him and the coach. It was a bad scene and the others in the dugout let me have it. My partner came in and kept the others in the dugout. I walked back to my position and directed the coach and player to leave the park. Around here, they can't even stay in the parking lot behind the fields. The game resumes and his team needs another two innings to win. As I'm walking to my car, the coach I ran comes up to me with two other parents and tells me that I'm wrong. One is holding a rule book and the other is threatening me. The coach said that he will protest the ejection and that's where we are today. He was forced to miss today's game, but his team won and is in the championship next week. I'm assigned to the dish. If he wins the appeal he can come back. If it is upheld he can't even watch from the bleachers. I need help guys.

[Clyde]

9.01b and 9.01d give the umpire authority to rule on matters of decorum and to eject players who violate his instructions. Also, a very broad reading of rule 3.09 prohibit players and coaches from addressing members of the other team.

The better question is why any self respecting umpire would want to work in such a bush league that refused to deal with this issue on its own?

[kylejt]

The real problem is that you're second guessing yourself.

You threw out a manager for unsportsmanlike conduct. Period. He couldn't control his bench, he's in charge of his bench, he's gone. Over.

I don't know what organzation this is, but if they overturn your ejection, I wouldn't work that game. You'll have your authority around your ankles, and won't be able to control anything in that park.

Question: What did you write in your ejection report?

[DG]

I find it very odd that an 18U tournament would have one exception to pro rules, a mercy rule, but not a malicious contact rule. If I were going to run a tournament with only one exception to pro rules it would be malicious contact. But I digress, back to your situation.

As soon as this crap starts tell the coach you want it stopped, get out your book and write down that you gave a warning for bench conduct/sportsmanship. When coach says he wants you to "show him where they had to stop" show him the warning you wrote down in the book and tell him there's his warning, and you will not put up with bench jockeying, and you expect him to take charge of his bench. When play resumes get the first person who does it again, and you may end up getting the coach when he comes out to argue. I don't know what you mean by "the others in the dugout let me have it", but if any of them said anything PPP (personal, profane or prolonged) then I get them too.

What happens next depends on your situation, and whether appeal is upheld. If the appeal is upheld you are dealing with jerks, and I don't know why you would want to go back. If not, it depends on what your assignor wants you to do. If you are working independent, then I don't know why you would want to go back. But if you go back don't take any crap from this guy.

[ManInBlue]

At the very least, Pete, you have verbal interference/obstruction. I hear coaches all the time griping about the "swing" crap.

If you feel that what they say is causing (or could be causing) a hindrance, then call the INT/OBS and use that as your basis to tell the coach that you indeed can control what they are saying, and they are "doing something wrong." Then exercise 9.01 and let him know HE can shut the hell up too.

You were right - should have run a few more by the way you say they acted after the EJ.

[kylejt]

"....then call the INT/OBS"

Yikes! How the he!! would that work? Would you really award the BR first for INT?!

[BigUmp56]

MIB:

There is no such animal as verbal obstruction in OBR. Pete mentioned they were using pro rules.

In FED a strong case could be made that the "He's going, cut it, back," and other comments could be called verbal obstruction if you feel the comments directly altered the course of the play.

Tim.

[ManInBlue]

Originally posted by BigUmp56
MIB:

There is no such animal as verbal obstruction in OBR. Pete mentioned they were using pro rules.

In FED a strong case could be made that the "He's going, cut it, back," and other comments could be called verbal obstruction if you feel the comments directly altered the course of the play.

Tim.

True, my mistake. Kyle, no I would not award the batter 1B on INT. Off the top of my head I couldn't recall if it was INT or OBS attached to the "verbal," so I put both. My apologies for the confusion.

Tim - Pete stated that the only difference was the mercy rule. I'd be willing to bet they allowed starters to re-enter the game after a substitution. That is not an OBR rule. There are probably others that he failed to mention. As was stated early in the thread - "No malicious contact rule" - not normal below AA ball. I admit I may have gotten my rules intertwined, but I would wager that there are other modifications to the rules by which they were playing. Possibly even the addition of verbal obstruction.

[cbfoulds]

Pete:
Hope this isn't too late, but if they are really "using pro rules" the "protest" is untimely if it wasn't registered prior to the next pitch being thrown. Even if they are using rules which allow protests after the game is concluded, Clyde gave you the rule cites: esp. 9.01b -"do or refrain from doing ANYTHING...."

[LDUB]

Originally posted by ManInBlue
Tim - Pete stated that the only difference was the mercy rule. I'd be willing to bet they allowed starters to re-enter the game after a substitution. That is not an OBR rule. There are probably others that he failed to mention.

I don't think so. There are plenty of games with no reentry.

[jicecone]

Gentlemen, you may not like this, but unless the team is attempting to say something to cause the pitcher to balk, I find no grounds to limit what was said, under pro rules.

You are on very shakey grounds with broad readings and decorum rulings, on this one..

I agree you may have to deal with a pitch to someones head here or there but, when strictly using OBR rules you better be prepared to deal with what the rules allow or disallow. And remember this is NOT HS or NCAA rules so don't go quoting them. Furthermore what YOU FEEL, is right or wrong, may not always be enforceable under the rules you are officiating.

I have done games where the players were quite loud and as long as I didn't think there was intent to cause a balk, my hands were tied. That didn't mean I wasn't speaking with the coach in between innings to try and curtail it.

Some times it works sometimes you have to go on.

[Pete in AZ]

This was a pro rules game, with the sole exception of the mercy rule. That was done in place of a time limit. We did not have reentry or slide rules.

Would you allow the catcher to say "Swing" to the batter?

[jicecone]

Originally posted by Pete in AZ
This was a pro rules game, with the sole exception of the mercy rule. That was done in place of a time limit. We did not have reentry or slide rules.

Would you allow the catcher to say "Swing" to the batter?

It is not a mattter of what I would allow, but what the rules allow.

I might be talking to the catcher about working with me to keep the game in control and not pissing off players and causing problems. You don't always need a rule to get what you want. Sometimes diplomacy works too.

[Pete in AZ]

I just got an email from someone who knows me and reads this site.

"Pete, I just thought you'd like to know that the World Baseball Classic will have a slaughter/mercy rule for the first two rounds. I think it's something like 10 after seven and fifteen after five. They also have strict pitch count limits. So much for OBR!"

I'm sharing this because it seems funny that the pros are using imposing these limits.

[BigUmp56]

The way the Domincan team is stacked with big bats I expect to see the mercy rule used quite a bit when they play.


Tim.