Tag/NoTag

[BigUmp56]

From the J/R:


Examples of Tag/No Tag

1) Ground ball to the third baseman who throws to the first baseman. The first baseman gloves the ball while touching the base but drops it after a collision with the batter-runner and before a transfer to throw: no tag.

2) Grounder to the first baseman, toss to the pitcher who gloves the ball, touches first base, but drops the ball a step or two after passing the bag and before a transfer to throw: no tag.

My question is why are these not considered tags as put outs on a runner? I don't buy into proving voluntary release on a tag of a base. As long as the ball was held securly at the moment the bag was touched I feel the out should be recorded if the fielder subsequently drops the ball.

Thought's?

Tim.

[Tim C]

Tim:

We talk of this specific issue often:

I always intone:

There are two camps (and always will be) on the issue.

FED takes away the discussion as there is a specific case book play that rules these "type" plays are, indeed, "outs".

Evans and J/R disagree ("surpirse, surprise") on the issue.

Evans has coined the term "gloved ball" to show a clear distinction between the voluntary release issue that established the difference if you use the definition of "a catch."

But consider one more issue:

Steve Mattingly, retired AAA umpire and owner of a baseball umpire school if Arizona, says: "In a professional game, consider trying to sell the 'out' to a manager that is all over your butt and there lies the ball on the ground!!"

So Tim what we have is a school that says: "the instant the base is touched and the ball held securely NO MATTER what happens next it is an 'OUT!'"

We have the other school that contends that secure position includes a "time" after the out is made.

I doubt seriously if we will ever get everyone on the same page and this is where I use my friend Terry's advice:

"Tee, sometimes you just have to umpire!"

[jicecone]

This is extremely simple to deal with.

When you get to the League that says it is not an out, "its not an out."

Otherwise, it's an out.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by jicecone
This is extremely simple to deal with.

When you get to work the League that says it is not an out, "its not an out."

Otherwise, it's an out.

[RPatrino]

A thrown ball that is gloved (caught) that remains in the fielders clear voluntary control while the base is being touched is an out. What happens after the out is made is moot.

How does J/R deal with the double play pivot where the fielder drops the ball after clearly touching the bag at second for the out? They call the runner there safe?

Bob

[LittleLeagueBob]

Tee -

1st year doing HS and would appreciate you pointing out the case play that highlights this situation...I don't remeber seeing it, and having been in the "other camp", I need to highlight this case play for myself...thanks!

Bob

[David B]

Originally posted by BigUmp56
From the J/R:


Examples of Tag/No Tag

1) Ground ball to the third baseman who throws to the first baseman. The first baseman gloves the ball while touching the base but drops it after a collision with the batter-runner and before a transfer to throw: no tag.

2) Grounder to the first baseman, toss to the pitcher who gloves the ball, touches first base, but drops the ball a step or two after passing the bag and before a transfer to throw: no tag.

My question is why are these not considered tags as put outs on a runner? I don't buy into proving voluntary release on a tag of a base. As long as the ball was held securly at the moment the bag was touched I feel the out should be recorded if the fielder subsequently drops the ball.

Thought's?

Tim.

Makes sense to me, they simply added to #2 the criteria for a catch since the pitcher was catching the ball ... (g)

Don't know the exact reason, but sounds as good as any.

Thanks
David

[nickrego]

Been in this situation many times.

I have NEVER had to sell a Non-Out when the ball has hit the ground immediately after a tag (without an attempted transfer or intentional contact by the offense).

I look at this way, if it looks like an out, call it an out. If it doesn't, call it safe. Just don't rush the call, changing after the ball has come loose will cause you major grief.

[insatty]

J/R has it exactly right based on the governing law. All three levels define "tag" to include "holding the ball securely and firmly in the hand or glove . . . ." E.g., NCAA 2-Tag. The fielder's dropping of the ball without voluntary release should be considered conclusive proof that he did not hold the ball securely in his glove.

If there are disputes over this, there shouldn't be.

[BigUmp56]

Nick:

I agree with you on a tag of a runner that the fielder needs to show secure possesion through a tag. On a tag of a base I have a hard time reconciling myself to disallow the out when secure possesion was shown prior to the collision.

Like I said, I don't buy into the post-tag evidence on secure possesion during a tag of a base. If I feel the fielder has secure possesion at the moment the bag is touched, I have an out.

JEA

Unlike a catch, a legal tag is based on the status of the ball at the time the runner or base is touched and not on the final proof of possession.

Tim.

[Edited by BigUmp56 on Jan 30th, 2006 at 02:39 PM]

[Tim C]

I suggest two of you read Tim's Evan's reference.

Some would say that a player can have "secure control" the instant the base is touched . . . and then lose control after that instant.

insatty I would suggest that you continue the research and see that there is, indeed, reason to discuss this issue.

[RPatrino]

Insatty, I sincerely suggest you rethink this statement in reference to the tagging of first base for an out. "The fielder's dropping of the ball without voluntary release should be considered conclusive proof that he did not hold the ball securely in his glove".

Consider this sitch. Ground ball to F6, F6 makes the routine play, throw is true to 1st, the BR is out by 3 steps. F3 receives throw from F6, and has secure possession of the ball in his glove while in contact with the base. BR, knowing he is out, makes the turn to head toward his bench on the third baseline. While F3 is attempting to remove the ball from his glove to throw it back to F1, BR inadvertantly knocks F3 in the glove and dislodges the ball. What do you have? Out/Safe?

I suspect that according to J/R you must call the runner safe. And I suspect that if you actually make this call there will be disputes.

Bob

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

It's just a thought: The guy was out by three steps, then has time to turn and bumps into the first baseman's mitt. It seems like enough time had passed by to allow the out to stand.

Bob, I've long held that the NCAA description is silly. Imagine R1 and R2 with two outs. Ball hit to short moving to third - he gloves it and flips it to third for a close play but an obvious out. F6 was moving when he caught the ball and stepped on the base, he takes another step and while trying to remove the ball, drops it. Uh, oh... his voluntary release was not complete.

What if he trots off the field with the ball. In the dugout, he drops the ball. We see fielders make the catch for the third out and do this all of the time. Come on boys, call the damn out.

[insatty]

Guys:

I may not have your experience, but any time the fielder puts his throwing hand on or near the gloved ball, you have the voluntary release the rules contemplate. So in Bob's "sitch," you have a voluntary release despite the inadvertent collision that may have contributed to the release.

Just because I am a lawyer doesn't mean I want to sound like one. But for officiating ease and clarity, I believe we amateur umpires should equate the way we officiate a catch/no catch with the way we officiate the tag of a base or runner. Accordingly, if a fielder gloves a ball, tags a base, and then changes directions and running speed, he has proved that he has held the ball securely in his glove even if he subsequently drops it without other voluntary-release characteristics. But if the fielder gloves the ball and after tagging the base or runner drops the ball without changing direction and speed or without voluntary release, it's no tag just like it would be no catch. He has not proved that he held the ball securely in his glove.

In my mind, it's the same concept that J/R describes with respect to "relaxed and unrelaxed action." It's what lawyers call "analogous" situations. The fielder should securely hold the ball after the tag during unrelaxed action.

Consistency in officiating catch/no catch and tag/no tag lends to our credibility, just like consistency does with our strike zones. As Garth always says, "Just my opinion."

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

We actually encountered this topic in Philadelphia at the convention.

Use the ordinary 5-4-3 DP for the illustration. The sharply hit ball is handled easily by F5. He flips it underhand to F4 who steps cleanly on the bag and beats the runner who is just beginning his slide. Crossing the bag, F4 reaches into his mitt and drops the ball. What do you have?

Most of us agreed that we would call the first out because he has stepped across the bag and planted his feet to throw - thus a second act. Some felt that the voluntary release had more to do with letting go of the ball with the glove. Obviously, if the fielder is reaching in to take the ball out he is doing it with intent. He drops the ball during the ordinary exchange - nullifying most possibilities of a second out. He clearly was holding the ball securely in his glove for the force out at second, why would you take that away from him. Others in the crowd were in the same camp as some of you. They would call teh runner safe and say that the fielder exhibited no control. B.S! He had control for that out and lost it while trying to make the next play.

Then again, most of these guys have been around a long time - many with pro school under their belts. They are simply afraid of Yeats and company changing the understanding of the rule. I'll search the NCAA archives for a video explanation of the exchange and see if I can post the link. They have a great resource there and if you don't mind long load times, you'll be in for a treat.

Have a look, it'll be better watching than the SOTU speech.