Foul Balls and Home Runs

[Peruvian]

Regarding FED play, do we as umpires, by rule, have the authority to reverse a foul ball to a home run or vice versa when the ball goes over the fence?

There has been some confusion as to whether or not we can do this within the rules (2-16-1e, specifically.)

For me, if I can get validation from my partners either way, I would, in the spirit of the game, reverse it. After all, it is a dead-ball situation.

Thoughts?

[Edited by Peruvian on Jan 25th, 2006 at 09:54 AM]

[SAump]

In this situation, the ruling should be made by the home plate umpire. It would be very diffcult for the PU to change his (or her) mind after the initial ruling, fair or foul ball. There may be some unexplained circumstances that may justify reversing the original call, but this would be a very rare situation. PU umpire should only make one call and it should be right the first time.

[U of M Sam]

I agree with SAump. Make the right call the first time especially with a home run situation.
I work with a simple theory when I umpire (which forces me to always concentrate): You can change a fair ball to foul but you should not change a foul ball to fair.

[Tim C]

By NFHS rule an umpire can change the call of a home run to foul ball or a foul ball to home run IF the ball left the field of play.

The inadvertant call of "foul" does not include a home run as the inadvertant call did not cause the ball to become dead.

Please note that I am using the term "inadvertant" but this rule still allows for a umpire to request help from another umpire if he is in doubt.

I have never heard that one "shouldn't change a foul ball to a home run" before: if you believe in the current concept of "getting the call right" then the umpire crew should discuss all issues and come to an agreement.

What ever happens the original "calling umpire" should make the final call.

Tee

[kylejt]

I'm amused by some of the responses. Of course, if you get the call right, you shouldn't have to reverse it. Duh. But what if you didn't, or you're not sure.

I've had several occasions where I'm tracking the ball down the line, and a player steps into my line of sight and blocks my view of the ball bouncing, or leaving the field. Sometimes you have to make an educated guess. If it's possible to get it right, by all means, get help and do so. The rules account for it on a HR. Sometimes the BU WILL have a better view of a ball leaving the field.

[Peruvian]

Originally posted by SAump
In this situation, the ruling should be made by the home plate umpire. It would be very diffcult for the PU to change his (or her) mind after the initial ruling, fair or foul ball. There may be some unexplained circumstances that may justify reversing the original call, but this would be a very rare situation. PU umpire should only make one call and it should be right the first time.

Thanks for the response, but maybe I didn't make myself very clear the first time.

Of course I would stick with my original call. However, in the event that we had needed to have a conference with my partners to see if we had enough evidence to overturn the call - that is what I thought might be restricted within the rule. The 'once-it's-foul-it's-foul' adage it what I was having a problem with.

[Tim C]

That is why I specifically kept my response to your question concerning a home run.

The NFHS rule book is now quite clear that the "automatic foul means a ball is foul" DOES NOT influence a home run.

Federation has ruled that the ball leaving the field of play has caused it to become dead, NOT, the inadvertant call of "Foul!"

Tee

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

It doesn't surprise us that the boys who run Alabama's high school program haven't tried to help you with this one. From what we've seen, they forget how hard this job can be sometimes.

At almost every level, it is now acceptable to admit you are human and do what is necessary to fix a bad call. That being said, Fed has handcuffed the umpire once again with the "Dead Foul Ball" call. Hopkins and gang continue their self perpetuating jobs. Make a bad rule and change it a few years later...that's job security.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Peruvian
Regarding FED play, do we as umpires, by rule, have the authority to reverse a foul ball to a home run or vice versa when the ball goes over the fence?

FED 2005 Interps, Situation 4 is this play. Ruling: "The umpire may reverse his call and declare a home run."

[JJ]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

At almost every level, it is now acceptable to admit you are human and do what is necessary to fix a bad call. That being said, Fed has handcuffed the umpire once again with the "Dead Foul Ball" call.

The FED did alter that rule for 2006, but it still isn't perfect. If the CAUGHT fly ball is wrongly called foul, this year it will stay live. However, as with the rule last year, if the FAIR ball that hits the ground is wrongly called FOUL, it is indeed foul and stays foul AND dead. The only one you can change EITHER WAY is the home run that leaves the yard. Fun stuff...

JJ

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

That just kills me, JJ. That must mean that some imbecile (other than Hopkins) watched a kid make a catch of a fly ball and called it foul instead of out. Some rack head coach pointed out that if you inadvertantly call it foul it must be ruled foul. The umpire fell for it and the other guy rightly brought up the ussie to his state association. They cried long and hard about it and Hopkins figured that a little fix means that they can perpetuate their jobs another year. Like band aids on a ruptured aorta, they're at it again.

I've got to believe that umpire in question was from Jacksonville, Florida. (Love the photo, 28!)

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
That just kills me, JJ. That must mean that some imbecile (other than Hopkins) watched a kid make a catch of a fly ball and called it foul instead of out. Some rack head coach pointed out that if you inadvertantly call it foul it must be ruled foul. The umpire fell for it and the other guy rightly brought up the ussie to his state association. They cried long and hard about it and Hopkins figured that a little fix means that they can perpetuate their jobs another year. Like band aids on a ruptured aorta, they're at it again.

I've got to believe that umpire in question was from Jacksonville, Florida. (Love the photo, 28!)

iirc, we are now in the third year of this rule.

In year 1 (2004), the rule didn't apply to caught foul flies -- the caught ball was an out and remained live, despite the umpire's incorrect call of "foul."

In year 2 (2005), it did apply -- the "foul call" stood and the ball was dead.

In year 3 (2006), we're back to the Year 1 interp.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Do you need more proof of why they have self perpetuating jobs?

Like I said, some umpire watched a ball get caught and called 'Foul' because of a brain fart. It's one thing to have Hopkins continue with his annual cerebral flatulence. It's quite another to have rules in effect 'because' umpires make mistakes. We already know that we can and should correct other calls.

This is just another reason why I stay away from all but a handful of High School games. That and I don't like to call fair balls foul.

[DG]

Timing is everything (ever hear that one). I tend to keep my mouth shut until I am DAMN SURE whether the ball is foul. And if it's fair I don't have to say anything, just point toward the fair part of the field.

[Rich]

Originally posted by SAump
In this situation, the ruling should be made by the home plate umpire. It would be very diffcult for the PU to change his (or her) mind after the initial ruling, fair or foul ball. There may be some unexplained circumstances that may justify reversing the original call, but this would be a very rare situation. PU umpire should only make one call and it should be right the first time.

Assuming a 2-man crew, if the bases are empty and the ball is down the right field line, the BU is making this call. Why would you assume the PU is making this call?