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Fri Dec 30, 2005, 07:34pm
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What methods do you use when asst coaches (normally when they are the base coach) try and argue with you in a civilized manner? I know asst coaches shouldn't be arguing, but i constantly find myself accidentally talking to them like they were the head coach.
What is your normal dialogue with asst coaches? Have any good tips on how to handle them? Thanks! -Bossman 
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Fri Dec 30, 2005, 08:43pm
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If an assistant wants to talk about a call, I will say, "I can't talk to you". Then I walk away from him, if I can. If he STILL wants to talk he'll do it as a fan because he will be ejected. That's happened once a season for the last few years.
If an assistant says "Hi", I'll say "Hi". No more, no less. I try to be civil to that extent, but we never CHAT about ANYTHING. NCAA assistants - and their head coaches - know those prescribed gound rules, so the ejection (when it happens) is never a surprise to either of them. JJ
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Fri Dec 30, 2005, 08:51pm
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In "serious" [you might say Real(tm)] baseball, Tee's approach is the best way. Assistant's are there for their players, and the umpire's [ideally and in theory] don't know they exist. If anyone's talking, it's s'posed to be the skipper. In my area Real(tm) baseball is College, HS Varsity, Legion, and District [or above] summer tournaments.
Since I'm in a fairly small community, everything else is rec ball and pretty "familiar": in which case, a low key comment or question, posed in a civil, reasonable manner, will receive a civil, reasonable, SHORT response - whoever it comes from. I do not "argue" about baseball with children, Assis't. Coaches, or spectators - at any level. If an Assis't even starts to argue, I tell 'em: "Look, if your skipper had a problem with the call, he'd be out here." Usually shuts them up. Of course, I also am well known in my area as a "take-no-crap" umpire who has, in the past, confirmed the self-ejections of miscreants: in wholesale lots, where necessary. You gotta deal with the culture you are working in: if you can manage it [it's the accepted and expected mode of behavior/ interaction], then "Assis'ts don't exist" is a lot easier on the umpire. Otherwise, some discussion may be expected/required by the prevailing culture, but NEVER tolerate "arguments" [demonstrations of active displeasure or delaying the game] by players or assistants: what you MIGHT take [up to a point] from the Head Coach/ Manager earns a warning or EJ from anyone else. [edited 'cause the "word nanny" didn't like an abbreviation] [Edited by cbfoulds on Dec 30th, 2005 at 08:53 PM]
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Fri Dec 30, 2005, 10:58pm
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Carter, where have you been counselor? Happy New Year and it's good to see your thoughts again. Don't kill me for the billable hours harangue on the other thread!
 Tee, JJ and cb nailed this one. Assistants are there for the players. Some of them are nice and want to make your life easier, but tehy are usually the exception rather than the rule. Like a co-worker who gives you a civil greeting, question or response, treat them accordingly. I usually don't let them ask questions about the game or calls. If he wants to know how my wife and children are, I may oblige and even reciprocate. In NCAA ball, those coaches may actually be able to impede your career. Some of them fill out the ratings forms and have the boss sign 'em. Even for high school ball around here, the assistant coach may be the brains behind the brawn. But, he's still the assistant and I can't remember the last time I ejected one. By the time they get up, the head coach has told them to sit down or is leading the way. As far as the original question goes, help steer an assistant coach away from your partner. Try to head him off or get between your partner and him. If your partner knows what he is doing, he is walking away and the agressor is obvious to everyone. When both are out there barking at him, escort him away from the fray and let your partner handle the head coach. Do not put your hands on him and don't let him do that to you. You both have a job to do and the kids need a few more "that wasn't you" or "pick out a good ones".
__________________
"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz
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Sat Dec 31, 2005, 11:17pm
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Sun Jan 01, 2006, 02:11am
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I agree, Rich. It saves you having you explain the call again to the manager when he comes out for the discussion. If it's important enough for the team to discuss the call, then it's important enough for the manager to take the lead himself and discuss the call.
With that being said, here's a video clip showing an NCAA umpire discussing a call with a pitching coach after a call on the half inning. http://web1.ncaa.org/web_video/baseb...5/20050513.wmv Tim.
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Sun Jan 01, 2006, 08:25am
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I think there is a small link missing in the replies. So far, some very established umpires have all been consistent - basically, if an assistant tries to argue, it will not be tolerated at all. That part is definitive. But how about conversations that are not argumentative. Tee, when you say assistants don't exist, are speaking with respect to arguments only? What about one who between innings asks, "Tee, if they had appealed last inning, would my runner on 2nd have been out for leaving early?". I expect that's OK, but I'd like a little feedback, because one of my all-time favorite argument/ejections started that way, and I still laugh at how I got suckered into it: Between innings. Coach: You look like you've been doing this a long time. [me: about 10 years] Coach: you obviously know the rules. [me: thanks.] Coach: Your positioning is good, too. [me: thanks.] Coach: You seem to take pride in your work. [me: thanks.] Coach: So how in the hell did you miss that tag at 2nd? Mike
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Sun Jan 01, 2006, 09:16am
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Around here, most Varsity Assistant coaches
are the JV head coach, and we do quite a few JV/V two game dates. Quite often this contributes to the JV head coach forgetting that he's no longer in a position to come discuss whatever he wants with you, when the Varsity games is going on.
__________________
All generalizations are bad. - R.H. Grenier
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Sun Jan 01, 2006, 03:19pm
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Sun Jan 01, 2006, 07:00pm
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I've been watching this and usually agree with trying to ignore someone who is trying to be a distraction. But you said that you would ignore all assistant coachs no matter what they said or did. That is the most mindless sentence I've seen written on these pages.
1- You've just been hit by a pitch and it hurt. In between innings the assistant asks if you want some ice or need anything. You ignore him and walk away...nice role model for the players and fans. 2- The assistant coach sees a ball fly into right from the game on the next field. He yells to you that he needs Time and you ignore him because assistant coachs don't exist, period. 3- The head coach is having chest pains and you are the closest adult on the field. You ignore him because you are too cool for civil relations. You only talk to the head coach. If it was important he would be out there. 4- The assistant coach apologizes for the rude behavior of his head coach. You walk away because you give what you receive. 5- An assistant comes out to question a close play at the plate. His head coach was in the bullpen getting the next pitcher ready to enter the game. The head coach couldn't have seen the play and the assistant wants to know what happened since the ball is on the ground. You ignore him, dust off the plate and say Play. You don't acknowledge assistants. 6- The assistant walks by you on his way to first base and says hello. He hasn't seen you in more than a year and asks how you've been and if you took some time off. You ignore him because you are above talking to assistant coachs. You are providing horrible information to this board. Your arrogance is contemptible. Umps like you give us a bad name. From the Fed ump manual: Be firm but not overbearing; courteous, but not ingratiating; positive, nut never rude; confident but never cocky; friendly, but not companionable; calm but alert.
__________________
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
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Sun Jan 01, 2006, 07:26pm
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I may have been wrong about you. You are so freaking clueless about reality and have to either set up straw men or exaggerate to the absurd to be able to argue that you may, indeed, actually be a lawyer. I can't fathom anyone but a LL umpire not understanding Tee's post.
__________________
GB
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Sun Jan 01, 2006, 07:40pm
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Sun Jan 01, 2006, 07:41pm
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Somebody is providing the board with bad info.
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Sun Jan 01, 2006, 07:52pm
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Wait just a second Garth B., you sound like you believe what he said too. Aren't you the same guys who tell other umps not to say that something will always or never happen? He said that he would NEVER talk to an assiatnt - that would be NEVER! I did not set up straw men, I gave him reasoned responses to his absolute conviction. As preposterous as a heart attack is I also provided a simple greeting and question. Why is the play at the plate so impossible for you to imagine?
You've joined in this attack just as before. Instead of arguing the facts you choose to berate. That is one of the reasons I left the practice of law. People like you take things personally and act juvenile. Look at each point and see how Tim C. said he wouldn't talk to them. defending his statement is almost as bad as your personal attack.
__________________
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
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