Is this runner interference?

[Mike M]

When I saw this post yesterday, I cringed. Then after reading the URC posts, I tried to point the alternative interp that Gee had posted. But as you can see, unless you have reference guide of interps, you will be hard pressed to sell your out call to the offense. My guess, you have a protest and some explaining to do. Sometimes the path of least resistance would be best, keep the ball live and hope the defensive coach has not read this threads.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by BPorter
G,

OK. Your argument hinges around what constitutes "reasonable chance", the 3 - 5 feet rule. If that is stated in the rule book then I would have to call the runner out. Is it stated in the rule book? If so, where?

It's not stated in the rule book. It's an interpretation of the word "passed". The interpretation only applies to OBR (pro rules). That's not your situation.

By the letter of the rule (8-4-2k), however, I would still argue that play continues, because in my opinion, no infielder had a play on the ball and the contact was unintentional.

Since you were playing under FED rules, your interpretation would be correct.

That's what Gee and Pete have been trying to tell you. The first rulings given were assuming OBR. When you questioned the ruling, you quoted FED. That makes all the difference. This is just one of the 400 or so differences between the codes (and one you won't find, iirc, in the current edition of BRD).

[Gee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bob jenkins
[B]

Originally posted by BPorter
G,

"...and one you won't find, iirc, in the current edition of BRD).

"

BJ, What is "IIRC" in your above statement? G.

[Gee]

I don't know what BJ meant by his above statement. However after reading the URC thread, Runner hit by batted ball, again, in order to clarify the FED ruling I conclude that the ruling in FED is the same as the ruling in OBR.

Carl, in that thread, states that fact and Bob Jenkins participated in the thread. Peter Booths ruling was on a deflected ball and matches the OBR.

I just can't fathom the idea that on the Ted Williams shift play, cited above, the runner would NOT be out. Holy Toledo. See ya. G.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Gee
I don't know what BJ meant by his above statement. However after reading the URC thread, Runner hit by batted ball, again, in order to clarify the FED ruling I conclude that the ruling in FED is the same as the ruling in OBR.

Carl, in that thread, states that fact and Bob Jenkins participated in the thread. Peter Booths ruling was on a deflected ball and matches the OBR.

I just can't fathom the idea that on the Ted Williams shift play, cited above, the runner would NOT be out. Holy Toledo. See ya. G.

1) The FED rule (interpretation) and the OBR rule (interpretation) on a batted, not deflected ball are different.

2) The FED rule and the OBR rule on a batted, deflected ball are the same.

3) Yes, I participated in the thread. At the end of it, I finally convinced Carl that it was a difference.

4) AFAIK, you don't work FED, so please don't try to sell me on your ideas of FED interpretations.

5) "IIRC" means "if I recall correctly"

Originally posted by BPorter
Runner on second advancing to third is hit by the batted ball. The runner is behind the third baseman, who misses ball entirely. Shortstop cannot make a play on the ball.

I say that play continues. Am I right?

Thanks.

I think Gee is way over complicating this. The original situation says the runner is behind the F5. If he is behind then he has to be within a three to five area of protection. I still say live ball.

[BPorter]

Michael,

If you follow the thread, I clarified that the runner was between F5 and F6. The runner was behind F5 in the sense that he did not run in front of F5 and F5 could have made a play on the ball.

Does this change your position on the call?

Bob

It changes it to a "you have to see it". It's possible it could be an out but it's a case by case basis. If you didn't see an out then the ball is in play.

[Gee]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

1) The FED rule (interpretation) and the OBR rule (interpretation) on a batted, not deflected ball are different.

2) The FED rule and the OBR rule on a batted, deflected ball are the same.

3) Yes, I participated in the thread. At the end of it, I finally convinced Carl that it was a difference.

4) AFAIK, you don't work FED, so please don't try to sell me on your ideas of FED interpretations.

5) "IIRC" means "if I recall correctly"

######################

Let's clear up #4 first. I said at least twice in this thread that I do not know, or do, FED. This thread did not mention FED when it started. I picked it up later, when someone cited FED rules. I am in no way trying to sell you anything on FED rules, I know better than that.

Let's go to #3. You convinced Carl on a different ruling than we are discussing here.

You convinced him that the FED ruling is the same as the Brinkman ruling. The Brinkman ruling simply stated that WHEN THEIR IS A "PULLED IN INFIELD" any ball that hit's a runner after gong by a fielder, (No regard to distance) that runner is NOT out.

When Carl first posted that ruling I and others questioned it. Carl went to Fitzpatrick at PBUC and Fitzpatrick killed it. All that tells me is that the Brinkman ruling is still valid in FED.

No problem but it does not concern this thread. We are not talking here about a pulled in infield, that has been settled.

We are talking here about an infield playing at normal depth. Apparently Fed doesn't accept the common OBR interp by JEA and others. Do they do that by just being silent or is their a definitive case study on it?

Please remember, I got into this as an OBR sitch discussing OBR rules, then it switched to FED leaving me in the wind.
I am just astounded by the fact that their is such a difference in the application of this rule without any definitive case study by the FED and I am involved for no other reason. G.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Gee

Let's go to #3. You convinced Carl on a different ruling than we are discussing here.

Can you please point me to the discussion on URC (forum, thread title, date)? I'll be better able to respond when I see that thread.

Thanks.

[joemoore]

I've seen MLB plays where a ball hit in the hole between F3 and F4 hits the runner. The ball is past F3 and F4 is pretty far away from the play. I've never seen it not called an out. Maybe because major leaguers can turn impossible plays into outs? Maybe because the rule is pretty simple?

[Gee]

First, Bob, You can go to URC, message board, to Situations, to the thread, Runner hit by a batted ball. 5/7 to 5/10.

Second, Joe, you are right in fact if you called the runner out every time he got hit by a fair batted ball you would be right 99% of the time in OBR. From what they are saying you would be wrong a hell of a lot more in FED and I'm simply trying to find out why.
G

[BPorter]

G,

How do I get to the URC forum?

Also, there appears to be at least two governing bodies, FED and OBR. What is the difference between the two?

Thanks.

Bob

[Gee]

Originally posted by BPorter
G,

How do I get to the URC forum?

Also, there appears to be at least two governing bodies, FED and OBR. What is the difference between the two?

Thanks.

Bob

Go to http://www.umpire.org and follow what I told Bob.

The OBR are The Official Baseball Rules,published by the Sporting News etc. They are the basis for all baseball rules. FED is the governing body for high school sports and they have adopted their own rules but they are based on the OBR also. 48 States adhere to the FED rules for High School. Two States do not. One is my state, Mass. and the other is Rhode Island. G

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Gee
First, Bob, You can go to URC, message board, to Situations, to the thread, Runner hit by a batted ball. 5/7 to 5/10.

Thanks. Here's the relevant play from FED:

8.4.2i Play: With R2 on second, BR hits toward second. The batted ball hits R2 while he is standing on second or while he is on his way to third. F4 and F6 (a) are playing deep behind the baseline or (b) F6 is playing in front of the baseline.


Now, I think this is substantially similar to the play that started this thread. Sure, it uses F6 instead of F5. And, the infield is in and the "normal" instead of the infield "normal" and the runner "back." Those differences shouldn't matter.

I think you'd agree that, under OBR, the runner is out in both cases (assuming the ball didn't pass "through" F6 -- which seems like a safe assumption in the case where R2 in on second).

So, here's the FED ruling:

Ruling:In (a), the ball is dead immediately. R2 is out and BR is awarded first base. In (b), the touching is ignored unless it is ruled intentional, and the ball remains alive because no other fielder had a chance to make a play on the batted ball. (5-1-if)

Note that in (a), the ruling is the same as in OBR -- the ball hadn't "passed" F6 under any definition. It's only under case (b) where there's a difference.

Basically, the OBR interp is that the ball must pass "through" a fielder before the runner is "protected" (some exceptions).

THe FED uses the "string" theory -- use a string to attach F3 to F4 to F6 to F5. If the ball passes the string, the runner is protected.

NCAA uses a rule similar to FED. Sorry, I don't have the exact referecne here.