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Sun Dec 04, 2005, 07:48pm
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Can someone please explain to me the reason the out call is delayed in NCAA play on coaches interference. I'm not asking about the delayed dead ball, just the logic behind waiting to make the verbal announcement on the out. I have to believe this puts the defense at a disadvantage. If they make a play on a runner who is already out. Tim. 
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Sun Dec 04, 2005, 10:24pm
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Why is this an NCAA question?
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Sun Dec 04, 2005, 10:27pm
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Sun Dec 04, 2005, 10:44pm
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Sun Dec 04, 2005, 11:24pm
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NCAA: 3-3 e. A base coach may not physically assist a runner in returning to or leaving the base. f. A base coach may not leave the box or act in a manner to draw a throw by a fielder or distract the pitcher. PENALTY for e. and f.A delayed dead ball shall be called. At the conclusion of the play, the assisted runner shall be declared out. Tim.
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Sun Dec 04, 2005, 11:59pm
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It is basically the same in Fed; 5-1-2f allows for a delayed dead ball and the player is called out when the umpire calls "Time". I thought we already covered this before.
The runners must return to the bases they occupied at the time of the infraction. Imagine a shot down the right field line with the bases loaded. R3 assumes that it will be caught and is holding tight. R2 and R1 have better angles and are starting to break when the ball one hops the right fielder. R3 slips on the ground and goes down - hard! R2 is fast approaching the base and R1 is coming up on second. The coach sees what is going to happen and grabs Junior's jersey, helps him up and implores him to head home. We allow the play to continue because R2 and R1 can be thrown out as they attempt to advance. In fact, R2 is gunned down at the plate and the B/R is thrown out trying to stretch his hit while the throw went to the dish - triple play and we earned a post game beverage.
__________________
"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz
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Mon Dec 05, 2005, 12:51am
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In fact, Fed and NCAA rules are different. Fed 5-1-2f simply states only that coach's interference results in a delayed dead ball. No infraction, penalty or out is necessarily implied because of a delayed dead ball or 5-1-2f, but Fed rule 3-2-2 does prohibit coach's interference, and it spells out the penalty: the involved runner or B/R is out. Furthermore, the Case Book 3.2.2 states the runner is called out immediately because of his coach's interference. Note that other interference situations may be handled differently, e.g. batter interference. Dave Reed
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Mon Dec 05, 2005, 02:45am
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Thank you, Dave and WWTB. I wasn't questioning the wording of the rule. What I was questioning was why the out is announced at the conclusion of the play under NCAA rules. Here's an example of a potential play that comes to mind: R2, B1 singles to right center. As R2 rounds third he slips and is assisted by the third base coach. He continues toward home. F4 cuts of the throw while BR is advancing toward second. F4 seeing R2 near the plate decides to play on him, allowing BR to obtain second uncontested. Now, F4 has just attemted to put out a runner who was already called out with a verbal announcement if this were a FED game. This would then be his fault. The runner had already been called out. No problem here. The problem I'm having understanding the NCAA ruling would a be the timing of the verbal announcement of the out. If the announcement is not made at the time of the infraction, then the defense may or may not know that if they make a play on R2, they're playing on a runner who is going to be called out regardless. The only indication they would have would be the delayed dead ball signal by a memeber of the crew. In my opinion, this puts the defense at a disadvantage. They could have had a DP here had they known to make a play on the BR, instead of trying to cut the run off at the plate. Tim.
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Mon Dec 05, 2005, 02:55am
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It seems pretty clear that if a coach assists a runner in Fed baseball, the penalty is that the involved batter or runner is out. Outs on the play stand and other runners are returned to the bases they occupied at the time of the infraction. But that's just the way I read it. How did you read 5-1-2f? BU56 - As I stated earlier, the out is called at the end of NCAA and Fed action!
__________________
"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz
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Mon Dec 05, 2005, 08:05am
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In fact, Fed and NCAA rules are different. Fed 5-1-2f simply states only that coach's interference results in a delayed dead ball. No infraction, penalty or out is necessarily implied because of a delayed dead ball or 5-1-2f, but Fed rule 3-2-2 does prohibit coach's interference, and it spells out the penalty: the involved runner or B/R is out. Furthermore, the Case Book 3.2.2 states the runner is called out immediately because of his coach's interference. Note that other interference situations may be handled differently, e.g. batter interference. Dave Reed BU56 - As I stated earlier, the out is called at the end of NCAA and Fed action! WWTB, There's no need to shout. The runner is not called out at the end of the playing action in FED. He's to be called out immediately. This is a delayed dead ball in both NCAA and FED rule codes, but the timing of the out call is different in NCAA. That's why I'm asking the question why the timing on the out call is delayed in NCAA play. You're the NCAA umpire, so explain to me how this doesn't put the defense at a disadvantage with multiple runners. Tim. [Edited by BigUmp56 on Dec 5th, 2005 at 02:20 PM]
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Mon Dec 05, 2005, 05:40pm
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I was not shouting, but I don't think that you get it at all.
In Fed, the runner is not called out immediately. IT IS A DELAYED DEAD BALL. That means that we wait until playing action ceases and then call 'Time'. We may then invoke the penalty, if necessary. I say, if necessary, because if the coach helps the player, but the player is thrown out at the plate, it doesn't matter. In NCAA, we have the same thing. We wait until the playing action is over, call 'Time' and then enforce any applicable penalties. As I said, we covered this a week ago and I gave you the answer just a day ago. They are basically the same. I don't think you grasp the concept of delayed ded ball or we wouldn't be having this discussion. The Case Book (3-2-2b) is in error, as Carl and I have said already. The Rule Book, 3-2-2 and 5-1-2f are in agreement. When explaining a rule, I prefer to back things with the Rule Book. The Case Book is like the "Umpring for Dummies" series. Yes, it helps explain things, but I have never said 'Coach, it's right there in the CASE book.'
__________________
"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz
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Mon Dec 05, 2005, 07:50pm
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Why would you announce "Obstruction" and signal it with regards to the play we are discussing?
It is now clear that you don't know much about umpiring. Please return to your reviews of equipment. Tim, As I said earlier (yes, again)...who cares if the defense makes a play on them? You should only be concerned with enforcing the penalty and not alerting the defense. The penalty is very clear in the Rule Book.
__________________
"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz
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Mon Dec 05, 2005, 09:00pm
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Oh my...the one who can post every four minutes won't respond to a challenge to his umpiring prowess. That does seem strange.
__________________
"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz
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Tue Dec 06, 2005, 08:52am
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Re: Discussing Obstruction - Where's Your Head?
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However, there was no obstruction in the play in this thread -- there was Coach's Interference. In FED, you're still supposed to signal the delayed dead ball, and while I would indicate the reason for the signal, I wouldn't indicate it with the word "Obstruction."
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