Positioning and Getting Help

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

I've worked with partners in HS varsity games who will ask for help twice a game and think that it's perfectly OK to do so. Why? Is it poor training?

--Rich

I concur. Umpires need to get their own plays. I have asked for help on plays at first maybe two or three times in 20 years. I work hard to get good angles, and I have my eyes where they belong, as dictated by the playing action. If a throw is on target, I watch the base and F3's foot. If the throw is off-line, I move, under control, to obtain the best possible angle, so as not to get straight lined on the tag attempt. Sometimes when in the middle, you can easily be screened out on swipe tags if you aren't prepared for them. Some guys stand in either B or C and never move out of their little patch of grass. You are supposed to start in those positions, not stay in them. I really get annoyed when partners are in A and still need help on calls at first base. There is no excuse for not getting the call yourself when in A.

I know what Rich means, I occasionally work with a certain few partners who are constantly either asking for help, or just plain kicking the crap out of every other call. My assignor, always the cynical smart alec, tells me it's good training for me. Yeah, thanks.

[Tim C]

I admit to being dense:

"An two legged cheetah can be caught by a one legged man."

Thomas, I have no idea what this statement means. Rich has stated a fact and I am trying to figure out what your reference means.

But I again admit to being dense at times.

Tee

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by thomaswhite

Au contraire, this is dependent on PU's movement capabilities. If PU is movement challenged, then yes, he should park his derriere at the plate and forget other potential duties which would require moving about. If his is capable of sprinting, then he should take a position up the line that would allow him to better call plays at 3B.

There are few absolutes in mechanics as physical abilities, knowledge of the game and experience make many mechanics issues relevant to them.

Thomas,

In the situation we are discussing, the plate umpire is supposed to stay home. Kaliix, I believe, was refering to the plate umpire, not the base umpire. PU has no play at third in this case. When I work the bases, I expect the plate umpire to cover third when there is a 1st to 3rd situation, when there are R1 and R2 for an advancement of R2 on a tag-up, when multiple runners are involved in rundowns, or if I go out from A. If I have left out any other case for PU to be at third, please correct me.

One of my pet peeves is the PU overhustling and hanging around up the third base line, when he has no business there. There are times to be there, but there are times to stay home. These situations are usually addressed at the pre-game in the parking lot.

[Sal Giaco]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Is anyone going to EVEN MENTION that the OP should've been moving towards the working area when the ball was hit?
Get to the working area, let the ball turn you, and prepare for anything.

Rich,
I understand your point - we should always strive to build the best angles and get in the proper position to make our OWN calls. I would say that if we do this correctly, the base umpire should be able to get 99% of the calls on his own. However, there are rare instances, especially in a two man system, where it is difficult to be in the ideal position to see everything - that's what we call the limitations of working with only two umpires.

With that said, the play Kaiilx describes can happen to anyone, especially when we anticipate certain plays but something different occurs. The point of this discussion is what do you do when you think you made the right call but the whole stadium "caves" in. No one says the BU has to go for help but as we discussed, if you can get help WITHOUT comprimising your (or your partners)integrity for the sake of getting the call right, MLB and NCAA now say to get help.

Ofcourse, as you mentioned, getting assistance from your partner should not be used as a crutch for lack of hustle and poor positioning on the bases.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by thomaswhite

I am sure you are very serious about all of the above and light of the fact that we are eons apart in philosophy and practice, and due to the limitations of this board (interactively),I will allow you your approach to umpiring and make no attempt to unseat what I believe to be a load of bollocks.

Just what bleedin' part of this bloody post did you have a problem with, matey? My mechanics are as solid as a rock. What mechanics do you use, pray tell? Are you one of those "let's all huddle up and sing cumbayah" type of umpire? And who are you, and exactly what qualifies you to trash my post?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Wow. I did not know that Pro School 2-man mechanics were not the standard.

I have worked with a few guys who couldn't get around well. We use modified, or "Sunday Mechanics" in these cases. In "Sunday Mechanics", the plate umpire stays home and tends his little garden, while the base umpire covers all plays at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. He never goes out. The plate umpire has all fair foul on fly balls.

These mechanics are rarely used, and only in extreme cases. Assuming two reasonably able-bodied umpires, standard mechanics apply. All your other ramblings are moot.

I am in pretty sorry shape, myself. I am a diabetic, I'm way overweight, I have had disintegrated discs in L-1 through S-2 vertebrae for well over twenty years now. But even with all of this, I can still get to third base from "A", well ahead of the batter-runner on the triple. I still manage to hustle down to third on a first to third play, and step into the cut and call it from atop the base. I am on total disability, but still manage. When it gets to the point where I can't cover my duties on the field, I will hang up my gear for good.

[JJ]

I ended a game on this exact call a few years ago, and refused to ask my partner for help. I had what I thought was a good look at the play (the first base coach begged to differ), and the plate umpire had other responsibilities (or so I thought). Needless to say, the offensive team wasn't very happy. After the game I asked the plate guy if he saw the play, and he said no - by the time the throw was arriving at first, the runner from second was arriving at and rounding third and he was watching for possible obstruction by the third baseman (we've all seen the play where the pivot man takes the throw, realizes he can't get the runner at first so he fakes a throw there and wheels toward third hoping to pick off the runner from second who has rounded too far, so the third baseman is coverng the bag for a possible throw). While I felt my sticking-with-the-call was then justified, hindsight told me my sticking with the call may not have been the best choice. If I had gone to my partner and he had said he didn't see the play, and I had then told the offensive team that we were staying with the original call, the coach's response would have been one we've all heard before - "Then you BOTH missed the call!" The thought also crossed my mind that if I went for help on this one, they may then ask for help on EVERY close play, which would lead to more on-field "discussions", which would lead to a bad, bad game. So I called the batter-runner out, stuck with the call, took some heat, kept my partner out of the mix, and the sun came up the next day.
If that play happened to me again, I think I'd go for help (based on the demonstrative response from the coach), and then I'd wait to see if, ultimately, the sun came up the next day. I like living on the edge - I take up less room there....

JJ

[briancurtin]

Originally posted by Tim C
Ask for help as all these "college" umpires have directed.

if this isnt directed at what i said, nevermind it, but i figured the quoted college was sort of pointing near me.
i wouldnt say i directed _everyone_ to use help in this situation, only those who obviously already feel the group hug is necessary and for those who dont have the pull that others have. i wouldnt expect someone like you who has been around and solidified themself in the area to need to ask for help on something in which they are sure of, others arent in the same boat and cant get away with it. im kind of addressing a slightly different situation with my post, one where you are absolutely certain versus the one kaliix posted which is being straightlined and _thinking_ you are correct.


however, getting into proper positioning is the real answer here, as the whole thing can be avoided and help really shouldnt have to be asked for in the first place.

[Tim C]

Brian the comment was not directed at you. I was simply trying to identify the difference between FED and college umpires (as college umpires are DIRECTED to ask for help) and nothing was meant in any type of a negative manner to you or them for that matter.

Tee

[SanDiegoSteve]

Doggone it, I must be one of the dinosaurs who just doesn't want to take my call to my partner after I already made the call. If I wasn't sure to start with, I would have asked prior to making any call. I will confer with my partner when appropriate, as in a rules question, or a dropped ball that went unseen. The usual accepted times for conferencing. But not because a coach didn't like my call. Like JJ said, the sun comes up the next day. I have no problem eating a kicked call. They happen so infrequently, and my one call will not be the reason a team will have lost.

[briancurtin]

Originally posted by Tim C
Brian the comment was not directed at you. I was simply trying to identify the difference between FED and college umpires (as college umpires are DIRECTED to ask for help) and nothing was meant in any type of a negative manner to you or them for that matter.

Tee

i apologize for misinterpreting what you said, i just looked at it and it jumped out at me.

[JJ]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve [/i]
I have no problem eating a kicked call. They happen so infrequently, and my one call will not be the reason a team will have lost.

This is a great point, and too often overlooked by coaches on every level - but of course, they have a vested interest in every call, and they are paid to try to not only gain every advantage for their team but to show support for their team by disagreeing with every judgement call that goes against them. It is the manner is which they disagree that sometimes gets them in trouble.

JJ

[Tim C]

If players and coaches didn't lie and cheat, you wouldn't need umpires.

Tee

[bluehair]

Originally posted by briancurtin
...however, getting into proper positioning is the real answer here, as the whole thing can be avoided...

I have no arguement that being in good position is the only acceptable place to be, but anyone can be straight-lined even if you are in the best position. To say that this "whole thing can be avoided" by good positioning is not "wholey" true (perhaps now, I'm nitpicking).

Being straight-lined is something that happens instantaniously. Anticipating being straight-lined is difficult to do and even harder to correct. By the time you realize that you are being straight-lined, you've already been straight-lined. Trying to fix this problem by making a late move is, IMO, risky and ineffective. I would prefer to NOT be moving when being straight-lined and try my best to get a clue of what happened (sound of a tag/altered path of a runner or glove, reaction of players, etc) while I am standing still.

[JJ]

thomaswhite, I have only one question for you - is there anything baseball related in your last three posts?

JJ