Strikeout not credited?

[GarthB]

~sigh~ The losing team doesn't seem to have a clue.

[Bob Lyle]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
I am truly dumbfounded by Carl's response. You actually took the time to justify your opinion with excerpts from a TOME AUTHORED BY YOU!

I think we can end all of this now, I will support all of my rulings with the manual I distribute at any of my umpire clinics. That makes as much sense.

Windbag,

Reasonable people can disagree with Carl's opinions. I'll be the first to say that I'd call the runner out for missing home plate. But who am I?

The fact remains however, that several publishers have risked their money to take Carl's works and put them into print, in either book or magazine form. Like it or not, Carl has built up a reputation over the years as someone who knows something about baseball and those opinions have been accepted by some subset of the baseball community.

What books or magazine articles have been published by the Windbag? What verifiable credentials does the Windbag have? Other than as an outstanding troll on an internet board, the answer is ZILCH. You're such a coward that you cannot even identify yourself. Carl has verifiable credentials. That's why Carl has earned the right to quote his works when buttressing his position and you've earned nothing but the scorn of your readers. For all we know, you're nothing but a Little League umpire with good writing skills.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Garth, that is no way to speak about Carl. He is not clueless, just misguided. I am sure he was a terrific umpire at one time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't believe that I am doing this, but I must address you, Mr. Lyle. Please take note of my screen name. You make some valid points and have written them here before.

1) Carl is a published author.
2) Carl has placed his reputation and credibility on the line.
3) You don't know who I really am, but it disturbs you that I may actually be who I say I am.


I don't believe that Carl's works are incorrect or ill intended. I have read an old BRD and found that it has a purpose. Do not confuse being published with being accepted universally. I recall the Unibomber was published and a once respected authority in his field. Now, I'm not saying that Carl is an anti-establishment hermit, but I don't pretend his halo isn't tarnished either.

I have nothing to gain by remaining anonymous. Read that again, I am not trying to become famous or improve my standing within my umpire circles by using a pseudonym. I have never admitted my identity because it is not important to the conversation. I don't need to know the cook to appreciate the meal.

There is no conspiracy and I have never said that I have a personal agenda against Carl. There are others who have stronger feelings and they let them show every once in a while. I take umbrage at the fact that he places himself on the mount and belittles those that don't pay homage. I have found inaccuracies in his statements and inconsistencies in his writings. I have answered every one of his direct questions because my credibility is not at stake. He has shied from mine because his is.

I am disappointed that a couple of you have agreed with my 'get the call right' mentality but disappeared when I challenged Carl's 'expected call' philosophy. You state that you agree now. When the man was implying that the entire board recognized that I must be a fool for disagreeing with tradition, where were you? Are the big dogs afraid of telling Carl he is wrong for cheating? That is what he is doing after all.

I have had more than my share of disagreements with you and still don't know why I am responding to you. My obstinance is often construed as arrogance. I pride myself on trying to better the next generation of umpires. I respect the game and know that I have never worked a perfect contest. Tolerating anything less than what I demand from myself is not acceptable. It serves no positive interest to tell others that cheating is permited by umpires. I can't rationalize others not reognizing this.

[Carl Childress]

You've answered all my direct questions, you say. Let me ask some more.

Let's talk just about FED:

You told me you would "probably" enforce FED 2.22.1a. Would you be "cheating" if you didn't?

Would you force the coach to stand with both feet in the coach's box?

The score is 21 to 0 in the third inning of a game without a mercy rule. Do you widen your strike zone?

The pitcher assumes the set position stance with two inches of his pivot foot outside the end of the rubber. Do you make him put his foot completely inside the pitcher's plate?

Do you require the coach to designate a captain and tell you who he is?

Do you call a balk if the pitcher does not come to a stop with his glove at or below his chin?

The rule requires the pitcher to disengage the rubber by stepping back "at least partially" within the length of the pitcher's plate. Do you check that every time and call a balk is he does not?

In the set position the pitcher must have his pitching hand down at his side or behind his back. If he does not, do you call a balk?

The rule requires the pitcher to take his sign from the catcher. If he takes it from the coach, do you call a balk or illegal pitch?

If a batted ball lodged in a pitcher's glove and he threw the glove/ball combination to first in advance of the runner, would you award the runner second base?

Or:

The first baseman's mitt in FED is 14 inches maximum; in NCAA, 12. Do you measure to see if the glove is legal for the level you're working?

The baseball in an NCAA game may be one-quarter inch larger than the ball in a FED game. (I'll bet you didn't know that.) Do you insist on checking the size of the balls?

I don't need to go on, do I?

I have given clinics in Halifax, Nova Scotia; Piedras Negras, Mexico; California, Florida, Iowa, Louisiana,
Missouri, New York, North Carolina, Wyoming, and more than 30 cities in Texas.

In my experience, umpires always choose which rules they will enforce — and when. Regular questions at clinics are:

When do I open it up?
How strict should I be in calling balks?
What should I do if I hear good-natured ribbing from one team to the other?

Every rule book has an elastic clause. In FED it's 10-2-3g. Baseball tradition, history, practice: We use those to help us decide what to do when we reach uncharted waters.

Don't accuse me of cheating because the rules you ignore and the rules I ignore are different.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

No, Carl, you do not get to ask anything more until you start answering what has been asked of you. Now, what is it going to be? Are you going to keep running or put your credibility to the test?

For the record, I said 'probably' and then explained it in a slightly less than 1,800 word response. Since you believe in the collective 'we', we know that you can read better than that. We've already discussed absolutes and you looked bad. Do you really want to revisit that?

[Edited by WhatWuzThatBlue on Nov 23rd, 2005 at 11:38 PM]

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
No, Carl, you do not get to ask anything more until you start answering what has been asked of you. Now, what is it going to be? Are you going to keep running or put your credibility to the test?

For the record, I said 'probably' and then explained it in a slightly less than 1,800 word response. Since you believe in the collective 'we', we know that you can read better than that. We've already discussed absolutes and you looked bad. Do you really want to revisit that?

[Edited by WhatWuzThatBlue on Nov 23rd, 2005 at 11:38 PM]

Refresh my memory. Ask me any five questions. Try to sell this dodge to anyone except the most gullible.

Don't misunderstand me. You are hoist by your own petar. Or, if you prefer, you may raise the blue peter.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Let's start with an easy one and then I'll indulge you.

For many weeks now, your expected call philosophy has not answered this:

The batter hits a fence clearing home run, he misses the plate on this game leading hit. You see it clearly, do you ignore it? (Anticipating the answer How much do you allow him to miss it by? What if he missed first base?


Now, I will reciprocate: I don't measure the baseballs or mitts. But I don't measure the bases, plate or distance to the mound either. In the Majors, I believe that the Braves were accused of making the catcher's box too big and they were caught. I don't check the bats for pine tar below the 18" mark either. No rule book or umpire manual suggests that these things should be done prior to a game. However, if a coach questions the legality of a mitt, I will rule on it. This attempt at humbling me was ill advised.

I don't work in many leagues that don't permit mercy rules. But,I don't change my strike zone regardless of the weather, score or discomfort the pitcher is experiencing. I encountered this dicussion last year at the NCAA meeting. If you want to succeed, you call the game the way it should be - first pitch to last. So, I guess it is a matter or priorities. Success that is earned or success that is ill gotten. We have both made our decisions and I can sleep soundly because of mine. Letting the players decide the game is one of the first things taught at most of my clinics.

I'm not sure why you are being so defensive. The ability to travel is not a gift. Instructing in multiple states is to be commended, I just hope you didn't try to explain the expected call mania. I'll have a tougher one for you later, but I can tell that this one will make you review your posts to see that you don't step on anything.

[SanDiegoSteve]

WhatWuzThatBlue,

Even the American Legion, who, after reading their umpire manual, are by far the most anal of all amateur sports organizations, agree that one should widen the strike zone in a game that has gotten lopsided. If a game is 21 to 0, the team with 21 better know to swing the bat when they're up. In blowouts, I've had coaches with the 0 tell me to open it up. They don't want to be there any more than do the fans, players, and umpires.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by PWL
I hate to interrupt this battle of wits, but isn't the captain designee rule new for 2006? I know they can have one at the pre-game meeting. However, it was not required to know who the the team captain was to my knowledge.

I don't think the pitcher is in the set position when he has his hand at his side or behind his back. He is preparing to come set.

As for the other little rules that are out there. I would enforce them if neccesary. If I have a pitcher with his foot 2 inches of the rubber or coming set with their hands too high, I will inform the coach or the pitcher of the violation. This is something you might see very, very seldom. I do this because neither one is aware that this is illegal. This depending on age, competition, and experience level. Coaching box sizes vary. Coaches have alot to keep up with. I think we all cut them some slack on this.

As for the glove and ball issue. I don't think they make first base gloves over 12" long anymore, or balls of a different diameter. If there is a difference in NCAA balls that I've seen or used, I couldn't tell by look or feel.

I believe we're starting to split hairs now.

If you don't know who the captain is, how can you know whether the coach appointed one?

You'd better re-read rule 6. There are two stances: set position and wind-up position. The pitcher has to come to a complete stop in the set position. "Coming to the stop" is NOT preparing to "come set." You make a common mistake, though.

You have good answers on most of the rest. You're making my point, of course. "Splitting hairs" is what Windy is doing. He knows well the difference between making the expected call and cheating. He knows that everybody ignores some rules. When I do it, though, it's a bad thing.

One thing: The mounds must be a lot better in your area than in mine. I can't remember a pitcher adopting the set position down here without some part of his pivot foot outside the end of the pitcher's plate. It has to do with the quality of the mound, I think.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
Let's start with an easy one and then I'll indulge you.

For many weeks now, your expected call philosophy has not answered this:

The batter hits a fence clearing home run, he misses the plate on this game leading hit. You see it clearly, do you ignore it? (Anticipating the answer How much do you allow him to miss it by? What if he missed first base?

Pretty simple stuff. The rule for touching bases is to prevent the runner from gaining an advantage. As I've said before, I'm not a stickler for base-touching when the ball is dead because it went out of the park. But I "probably" (grin) would uphold an appeal when the batter-runer missed first. Needing to score to win the game, he likely missed the bag trying to gain an advantage. Somewhere after first, he'd realize the ball had gone over the fence. A famous play (famous because I've covered it in print several times) was: R2, B1 hits a stand-up triple. In the days before FED reinstated appeals, my base umpire killed the ball and called out R2 for missing third. That's pretty weird umpiring, I think.

I don't check the bats for pine tar below the 18" mark either. No rule book or umpire manual suggests that these things should be done prior to a game.

I'm taking "these things" to mean illegalities of equipment. Check FED 10-2-3a, NCAA 4-1a, and OBR 3.01a. All books require the umpires to check for that before the game.

I'm not sure why you are being so defensive. The ability to travel is not a gift. Instructing in multiple states is to be commended, I just hope you didn't try to explain the expected call mania. I'll have a tougher one for you later, but I can tell that this one will make you review your posts to see that you don't step on anything.

The point of listing the clinic sites was to support the words "my experience," which is not limited to a suburb of Chicago.

Look, we've beaten this poor nag to death.

I say tradition counts for something.
You say "get it right at all costs."

I say we ought to ignore some rules because the offender did not gain an advantage.
You say we should ignore some rules but not the ones that (you say) count.

I say the amateur umpire is generally better off making the call that everybody expects: phantom tag and double play, "if he's gonna be out, he's gonna be out."
You say damn the torpedos, full steam ahead. Runner at third. The pitch hits the outside edge of the plate at the hollow of the knees and breaks down so that the catcher has to lunge to his right to catch the ball and prevent the runner from scoring on the wild pitch. "Strike!" is your call. Everybody knows what I would call.

Everybody also knows where we stand on this issue. You are the romantic; I am the realist.

Just don't tell me that when the score is 20-0, you still make the pitcher bring the ball over the white of the plate if he wants to get a strike.

You know, you wouldn't be in this mess if you were just "consistent" instead of "foolishly" so. You can argue that my general philosophy is wrong without adopting a "winner-take-all" attitude. If you've been honest about your experience (of course, no one can check that), then we know there are times when you, too, bend the rules. If an umpire always calls what happened, he will be in deep caca before long. At least, that's been my experience: Rule book umpires don't get very good games where I've been.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by PWL
Carl,
I heard having a captain at the home plate meetings was going to be something new in FED this year. I also heard that some of the gloves that were illegal for pitchers in the past were going to be made legal. For example, the brown and black two tone were now going to be okay. However, if they were of a grey or white as in the past they would still be illegal.

The reference I use when the pitcher is on the mound instead of set is "toe the rubber". He can still be in the same position you descibed, only his pivot foot can be behind the rubber. As you well know even if he has his pivot foot on the rubber, he can still turn his shoulders towards first base.

The other term I use is "set stop". As you also know, as the pitcher is coming to his stop, he can also turn his shoulders towards first. When he comes to his stop, he becomes more restricted in his movement. That is why I use these terms.

I understand where you are coming from on the mound issue, too. If someone has dug a grave in front of the rubber, I'm going to give some leeway. I know some schools don't maintain their fields as good as others. Some even have to use a public facility.

You know how four letter words can get you in trouble. BALK is one of those words.

I just like my games to run as smooth and painless as possible.

HAVE A HAPPY THANKSGIVING

We understand what you mean, but that's not what you say. "When the pitcher in in the set position" means he has his pivot foot in front of and within the edges of the pitcher's plate. If his foot is behind the pitcher's plate, he's not a pitcher. When he is in the set position, then, his pitching hand must be behind his back or at his side.

FED 1-1-1 says one player must be designated captain. That's been the rule for 30 years. What's new this year is that the head coach has to be at that pregame meeting.

As for turning his shoulders as he's coming to a stop being legal: The FED interprets that to mean he cannot turn after he brings his hands together, whether he's still moving to the complete stop or has stopped already.

Here's a hint I've found useful: Always describe an event by its rule book name:

It's not "coming set"; it's "coming to a stop."

It's not "dropped third strike"; it's "pitch not caught in flight."

The runner is not out for passing a preceding runner (OBR to the contrary). Who does the passing isn't important. What counts is which runner is in advance on the base path. When it's the trailing runner, he's out, even if the other runner passed him going back to the base.

A ball nicked down at the plate isn't a "foul tip." That critter has to be a caught foul ball that went direct from the bat to the hand or mitt.

Happy Thanksgiving to you, too.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Gentlemen,
I just got back in town from an exhausting stay at some of our in laws. My wife had a death in the family and I just couldn't bring myself to use the laptop or PDA during the visit. Give me a few hours to get some sleep and I will be happy to be Carl's foil. I do have some baseball issues to address.

Pleasant dreams!

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

I see you're up, so I'll give you one to kick around until I am better rested.

1) Umpires are not required to measure the bases or pitching plate, check every bat for pine tar or remove loose gloves from the field. Don't tell me that 10-2-3 says that we should! (Do you measure the pitching circle to be certain that it is legal?) We are merely charged with a cursory inspection of the equipment. McClelland should be concerned to hear that he should have caught the illegal bats used by Messrs. Brett and Sosa during his pregame!!!

I have also worked a few games that saw the catcher leave his mitt on the dish as he left each half. The other team either broke theirs or the regular catcher (and his gear) was unable to find his way to the field.

10-2-3g is a favirite of mine on the Fed field, though. It allows for me to ignore the coach who implores me to call VO for an infielder saying "Back". 'Coach, if you can just show me specifically where it mentions that this is an infraction, I'll be happy to oblige.' (grin, grown and good night!)

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

from Carl's fingertips to your brain...

An asterisk (*) identifies my responses

"You've answered all my direct questions, you say. Let me ask some more. Let's talk just about FED: You told me you would "probably" enforce FED 2.22.1a. Would you be "cheating" if you didn't?"

* No, as I’ve said, it is not the same play. Please don’t make me question your reading skills. For those just tuning in, I say ‘probably’ on most of my specific play responses. I don’t understand how anyone can provide a definitive answer to any hypothetical play. There are simply too many grey areas and conditions involved in this great game. I provided several to Carl’s initial queries.

"Would you force the coach to stand with both feet in the coach's box?"

* During my pregame, I usually tell them to keep themselves where they are supposed to be, unless they need to talk with me. That goes for the coaching box or dugout. I usually let them meander, especially when they have a chance to interfere with a defensive play. Oh, I make sure they are dressed appropriately too. I’ve kept ‘coaches’ in the dugout who weren’t properly dressed – yes, on a college field, too.

Also, a coach can be in a wheel chair in the box - no feet on the ground at all! I bet you didn't know that.

"The score is 21 to 0 in the third inning of a game without a mercy rule. Do you widen your strike zone?"

* No, I’m kind of religious about not changing my zone when a pitcher has trouble, it’s getting late, it’s cold, my feet hurt, my wife made a great meal, the score is lopsided…

If you cater to an inning, score, pitcher, catcher or coach that is your prerogative. I found that climbing this ladder depends on consistency, not popularity. But let’s give your theory some legs, let’s say that the coaches decide to play some younger athletes. Are you serving them your best by opening your zone? What if that is the only at bat that kid gets all season and you job him with a nose to toes and line to line strike zone? I respect the game too much to play with the outcome. Also, I don't work too many games without some sort of a mercy rule.

"The pitcher assumes the set position stance with two inches of his pivot foot outside the end of the rubber. Do you make him put his foot completely inside the pitcher's plate?"

* I usually don’t look that close at his toes, (especially with a four inch hole in front of the rubber, he's not likely in contact with it either!) but if I did, I would probably tell his catcher to talk to him or I’ll handle it. It looks better when the catcher requests time and provides the message, rather than me strolling out there – I don’t play to the spotlight. You’d also be surprised how many illegal pitching plates are out there. I don’t measure those either, but I thought you appreciate that I’m aware that some schools cut corners in lots of ways.

"Do you require the coach to designate a captain and tell you who he is?"

* Nope, never have and it has never been a problem. In fact, I’m usually tickled pink when a player announces that he is the Captain. I ask him if I should salute and he usually laughs and says that he’s just happy to hand me the line up card. I don’t do a cup check either – I usually just ask if everyone is properly equipped and ready to play. I just didn’t want you asking me if I check for the mandatory cup on the catcher, since it’s in the rules too!

"Do you call a balk if the pitcher does not come to a stop with his glove at or below his chin?"

* Usually, I’ll get a better angle from the inside of the infield, but I’ve called my share of high balks from both positions. Again, I usually let the catcher know if I see it during his warm-ups. This usually prevents it from happening, but I don’t see a whole lot of technical balks on the college fields. Call it once and they figure it out – I’m pretty sure the pitcher from the CSF/ASU game won’t have a problem coming set next year either!

"The rule requires the pitcher to disengage the rubber by stepping back "at least partially" within the length of the pitcher's plate. Do you check that every time and call a balk is he does not?"

* During that millisecond of time, I’m watching many things, but probably not that fraction of an inch. I have balked pitchers for not disengaging the rubber before exhibiting distance and direction.

You seem confounded by minutiae. I said I enforce the rules I see, but you keep trying imply that I’m seeing things and ignoring them. We’ve already covered this and that is your domain.

"In the set position the pitcher must have his pitching hand down at his side or behind his back. If he does not, do you call a balk?"

* Yes, I have called this too many times to remember. It usually only takes one and the game moves along. This is an easy balk and not a difficult concept for pitching coaches to conquer.

"The rule requires the pitcher to take his sign from the catcher. If he takes it from the coach, do you call a balk or illegal pitch?"

* No, we’ve covered this before, as well. If the pitcher is taking his sign from the bench, the stands or Dionne Warwick, as long as he is engaging the rubber and looking at the catcher before he comes set, I have no problem with it. Chances are that the catcher is getting it at the same time as he is. Most of my catchers are smart enough to flash some silly signal toward the pitcher before he begins his windup. I’m not looking between the catcher’s legs, I won’t suggest you are either.

Most of us believe that this rule is to prevent quick pitching to confound a runner or the batter. I like to think that some OOC thinks he can call a better game than a monkey with a pair of dice.

"If a batted ball lodged in a pitcher's glove and he threw the glove/ball combination to first in advance of the runner, would you award the runner second base?"

* I knew this was coming and if you recall our last conversation, I said that I would call what was in the book, but I disagreed with the logic. It would be as painful for me as calling that missed plate for you.

"Or:

The first baseman's mitt in FED is 14 inches maximum; in NCAA, 12. Do you measure to see if the glove is legal for the level you're working?"

* Asked and answered, your honor. I don’t measure any equipment unless a problem is brought to my attention. Despite your assertions, the book does not tell us to measure mitts, bases, balls or uniform patches during the pregame.

"The baseball in an NCAA game may be one-quarter inch larger than the ball in a FED game. (I'll bet you didn't know that.) Do you insist on checking the size of the balls?"

* I was not aware that our balls were different sizes. (grin) I insist on having the correct number of approved baseballs to start the game. However, I have been known to look away when a coach hands me brand new professional baseballs instead of the shiny NFHS ones. I usually ask the other coach if he has a problem with it and most likely hear, ‘As long as there white and round, I don’t care.’

"I don't need to go on, do I?"

* Oh, please…this is such fun. Especially after the last four days I’ve had.

"I have given clinics in Halifax, Nova Scotia; Piedras Negras, Mexico; California, Florida, Iowa, Louisiana,
Missouri, New York, North Carolina, Wyoming, and more than 30 cities in Texas."

* Texas? You sank my battleship! I hope your accountant gets mileage reimbursement for you. I could never hope to have traveled to and taught in so many places. (bigger grin) My training and teaching experience are not relegated to a tiny hamlet in Illinois. Tsk, tsk, tsk...

"In my experience, umpires always choose which rules they will enforce — and when."

* a la verbal obstruction…or just when the ‘expected call’ is desirable?


"Regular questions at clinics are:

When do I open it up?"

* I suggest on the wedding night, but that is rather personal for most of my clinics. Or were you referring to Christmas presents? Because I like the little ones to open one on Christmas Eve; it just makes them all giddy.

"How strict should I be in calling balks?"

* What level do they work and what are their priorities? Does the league demand umpire enforcement of them or do they allow for discretion? If they were working coach pitch or tee ball, I would discourage them from calling balks.

"What should I do if I hear good-natured ribbing from one team to the other?"

* Write them down on the back of your line-up card. They make great off season fodder for umpire chat rooms. I like the one about the school for the blind playing the school for the deaf. As long as I don’t hear the Aristocrats joke one more time…

"Every rule book has an elastic clause. In FED it's 10-2-3g. Baseball tradition, history, practice: We use those to help us decide what to do when we reach uncharted waters."

* So, if it isn’t in the book, we can rule on it according to our best judgment? At last, we can agree on Verbal Obstruction from an infielder on a runner leading off. Thank you, I knew you’d finally see it my way.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
from Carl's fingertips to your brain...

[nipped]
Also, a coach can be in a wheel chair in the box - no feet on the ground at all! I bet you didn't know that.

[snipped]

"Do you require the coach to designate a captain and tell you who he is?"

* Nope, never have and it has never been a problem. In fact, I’m usually tickled pink when a player announces that he is the Captain. I ask him if I should salute and he usually laughs and says that he’s just happy to hand me the line up card. I don’t do a cup check either – I usually just ask if everyone is properly equipped and ready to play. I just didn’t want you asking me if I check for the mandatory cup on the catcher, since it’s in the rules too!

The Forum has moved on. Two points: First, wipe out all the earlier "plays." That 2.22.1a is different from the original play in this thread IS NOT RELEVANT to my question.


Second: It's enough to point to only one of your answers (though there are others) to prove that you, too, selectively enforce FED rules.

Each of the two teams consists of at least nine players throughout the game ... one of whom must be designated captain. (FED 1-1-1)

There's no wiggle-room here. You say it's not a problem. I agree. I treat it the same way. But I don't go around bragging that I'm a perfect rulebook umpire either. BTW: I check for the cups as the books requires: "Coach, are your players equipped legally?" (I don't ignore that rule.) But there's no such question required for discovering who the captain is. You don't do it; I don't do it. That one rule we both ignore.

We all selectively enforce the rules of the game. Only [fill in the blank] suggest they do otherwise.

Finally, listen carefully: There is nothing about the current rules that I don't know!

As the old saying goes, "No brag. Just fact!"

If you care, you may read my separate post on the event you bet I didn't know.