In the dirt or not?

[phillips.alex]

Originally posted by tmp44
I don't know if Eddings knew the ball hit the ground, only for the simple fact of what he did the inning before on the third strike not caught...he waited until the tag was applied before the punch.

Here's a point that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet. Everyone is basing this one what Eddings did with the fist pump after the strike. But how did this affect the catcher's thinking that it was a strike 3/out? Watch the video again...THE CATCHER NEVER LOOKS BACK AT EDDINGS TO SEE THE FIST PUMP. HE IS ALREADY OUT OF THE SCREEN WHEN THE SIGNAL IS GIVEN. My guess is that Eddings must have verbalized strike and not out (if anything at all) and the catcher and batter just thought two different thing. Thoughts?

The proper NFHS mechanic I've always been taught is the fist pump for both strikes and outs. What would the HS ump do here?

[Edited by tmp44 on Oct 13th, 2005 at 11:38 AM]

Hello. I am a HS ump in Washington, and there are some rules as to a dropped third strike mechanic. First off, a batter is never verbally called out on strike three. A mechanic that you use to signify a strike (either pointing or clenched fist) is thrown, but there is not words except for "strike three." This is so as not to cause confusion on a dropped third strike. It is the players responsibility on the dropped strike, not the official. The catcher, when in doubt, should always tag the runner or throw to first. The runner, should always run to first. If the runner instead leaves to a dugout, he is declared out once off the field if the strike has been dropped. If the runner goes to first, the umpire has two choices. First is to call the ball dead and claim the catch was clean. Second is to let the play go on, pointing the ball live. IF there is any doubt by the plate ump, ask for help from the field official. When in doubt, tag the runner out.

As for the mechanic of the plate umpire, it is quite unusual for the arm to be thrown as he did. If he was trying to point the ball live, he did it in the wrong order. You must first signal the strike, then point to the dirt to signify a live ball. Many an umpire has died by bad signals and using too many words. An "out" should never be called based on a third strike. If the umpire believed the catch to have been clean, he should have called the ball dead, and then called the batter/runner out.

[phillips.alex]

one more note. Any catcher that rolls the ball to the mound without looking back is in need of some serious teaching. I will fully agree that the catcher made a good choice by quickly moving towards the dugout. All decent catchers, just like all decent umpires want to sell their calls. Right or wrong, the catcher wanted to make it look like he caught the ball cleanly. As soon as the runner goes, however, he should have thrown the ball instead of rolling it towards the mound. The official cannot always be correct, but what he says is what is ruled, and the catcher needs to be ready for that. I have missed dropped third strike calls before, but fortunately i have had catchers that lay a tag anyways.

[Kaliix]

What is with this calling the ball dead stuff after a strike out? Do that and you are screwing the pooch worse than Eddings ever did.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by phillips.alex
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by tmp44
[B]I don't know if Eddings knew the ball hit the ground, only for the simple fact of what he did the inning before on the third strike not caught...he waited until the tag was applied before the punch.

Here's a point that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet. Everyone is basing this one what Eddings did with the fist pump after the strike. But how did this affect the catcher's thinking that it was a strike 3/out? Watch the video again...THE CATCHER NEVER LOOKS BACK AT EDDINGS TO SEE THE FIST PUMP. HE IS ALREADY OUT OF THE SCREEN WHEN THE SIGNAL IS GIVEN. My guess is that Eddings must have verbalized strike and not out (if anything at all) and the catcher and batter just thought two different thing. Thoughts?

The proper NFHS mechanic I've always been taught is the fist pump for both strikes and outs. What would the HS ump do here?

[Edited by Kaliix on Oct 13th, 2005 at 11:06 PM]

[JJ]

Well, I had a GREAT look at the play from my La-Z-Boy, and I can say without a doubt that SOMEBODY screwed up, SOMEBODY will be chewed out, and the UMPIRE will get ALL the bad press.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Just about the only "proper mechanic" post we haven't heard yet is, "you put your left foot in, you put your left foot out, you put your left foot in, and you shake it all about, you do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself around, that's the proper mechanic for third strike not caught!"

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Hey Rich.........a big Howdy........

Joel

[RPatrino]

I have taken a break from this and all the other forums. I enjoy participating in knowledgable discussions about rules and mechanics.

I do not enjoy personal attacks. We need to show each other a bit more respect than what SoCal showed in his post on this thread.

Read T's article on the website and give it some thought.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by phillips.alex

Hello. I am a HS ump in Washington, and there are some rules as to a dropped third strike mechanic. First off, a batter is never verbally called out on strike three. A mechanic that you use to signify a strike (either pointing or clenched fist) is thrown, but there is not words except for "strike three." This is so as not to cause confusion on a dropped third strike. It is the players responsibility on the dropped strike, not the official. The catcher, when in doubt, should always tag the runner or throw to first. The runner, should always run to first. If the runner instead leaves to a dugout, he is declared out once off the field if the strike has been dropped. If the runner goes to first, the umpire has two choices. First is to call the ball dead and claim the catch was clean. Second is to let the play go on, pointing the ball live. IF there is any doubt by the plate ump, ask for help from the field official. When in doubt, tag the runner out.

As for the mechanic of the plate umpire, it is quite unusual for the arm to be thrown as he did. If he was trying to point the ball live, he did it in the wrong order. You must first signal the strike, then point to the dirt to signify a live ball. Many an umpire has died by bad signals and using too many words. An "out" should never be called based on a third strike. If the umpire believed the catch to have been clean, he should have called the ball dead, and then called the batter/runner out.

I don't agree with your mechanics, but that's something that can be discussed. But if you are reporting accurately, your association doesn't properly enforce the rules following a dropped third strike. See 8-4-1i.

BTW: Sal Giaco said the correct terminology for thiis event is "Third Strike Not Legally Caught." Back in the 50s I was taught that the proper reference is "Third Strike Not Caught in Flight." But this evening, after the Astros' thrilling victory over the Cards, while researching for this message, I learned the proper term for high school is, indeed, "dropped third strike." See 8-4-1f.

Lah, me!

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by RPatrino
I have taken a break from this and all the other forums. I enjoy participating in knowledgable discussions about rules and mechanics.

I do not enjoy personal attacks. We need to show each other a bit more respect than what SoCal showed in his post on this thread.

Read T's article on the website and give it some thought.

Bob, isn't it about time for you to join Tee back on the paid site? Officiating.com would appreciate an article that agree with Tee. (grin)

[RPatrino]

Catch or no catch, we will never definitively know. So be it.

What is the proper mechanic? About 2 years ago I switched from the "hammer" strike call to the "sideways point (eyes looking forward, of course) for swinging strikes. If it was a half swing, that is accompanied by a "he went" with a point at the batter. Now, if the batter swings, and the strike is caught, I combine my "sideways point" (eyes looking forward, of course)with a mild "out" hammer. I do not verbalize strike three. Now,if the players act confused,they don't realize the ball was caught, and they start to act "hinky" I will verbalize, "batter is out".

If the third strike is not caught, then I just do my "sideways point" (eyes looking forward, of course), with no mild "out" hammer.

Hope this made sense. (Papa C. don't edit this!!)

Bob P.

[RPatrino]

I had planned to submit again. The itch is back!! I have LOTS on my mind..

Bob P.

[NDblue]

It doesn't matter if the ball hit the dirt before it hit the catchers glove, it's still a swinging third strike out. If it had come out of the glove then hit the dirt, then this would have been a correct call. It was a cleanly caught ball, it wasn't a dropped 3rd strike. I'm an umpire and I usually side with my brothers in blue but this PU blew this call.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by NDblue
It doesn't matter if the ball hit the dirt before it hit the catchers glove, it's still a swinging third strike out. If it had come out of the glove then hit the dirt, then this would have been a correct call. It was a cleanly caught ball, it wasn't a dropped 3rd strike. I'm an umpire and I usually side with my brothers in blue but this PU blew this call.

You might want to review what the definition of "in flight" is.

[NDblue]

It wasn't dropped or mishandled by the catcher.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by RPatrino
Catch or no catch, we will never definitively know. So be it.

What is the proper mechanic? About 2 years ago I switched from the "hammer" strike call to the "sideways point (eyes looking forward, of course) for swinging strikes. If it was a half swing, that is accompanied by a "he went" with a point at the batter. Now, if the batter swings, and the strike is caught, I combine my "sideways point" (eyes looking forward, of course)with a mild "out" hammer. I do not verbalize strike three. Now,if the players act confused,they don't realize the ball was caught, and they start to act "hinky" I will verbalize, "batter is out".

If the third strike is not caught, then I just do my "sideways point" (eyes looking forward, of course), with no mild "out" hammer.

Hope this made sense. (Papa C. don't edit this!!)

Bob P.

Bob: There are but four people who can edit your post: Brad Batt, the CTO; mick; Bob Jenkins; and - you.

BTW: "A lot" on your mind does us no good unless you let us inside.