In the dirt or not?

[Tim C]

Bandit wrote:

"It's funny how baseball seems to be going more and more to the slot position behind the plate even in the majors, isn't that a "softball" mechanic? Hmmmmmmmm ? Maybe us robots do know something!"

---

Help me. What the he11 does this mean? Baseball has been working "the slot" siince 1938.

Another non-umpire answering a question.

Lah Me!

Honest I am out of here.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Bandit
Have read a lot of posts on this subject since the game, have listened to a lot of talk radio, and seen a BUNCH of ESPN experts give their thoughts on this event. Rich, one thing seems clear....if baseball would maybe become more like the ASA girls softball robots as you have called us, this problem might not have even occured and a CLEAR and COMMON mechanic might have been used and dictated the play and it's results. It's funny how baseball seems to be going more and more to the slot position behind the plate even in the majors, isn't that a "softball" mechanic? Hmmmmmmmm ? Maybe us robots do know something!

So you are saying that using ASA mechanics would have made the situation better?

I have seen bangers on TV at second base called out with the same ugly fist straight up in the air. The ASA out is the same as the ASA strike.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

I've only found one article talking about team sales, and it suggests the Raiders are #1, which is equally ludicrous:

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfranci...10/story2.html

Dallas hasn't won a playoff game in 10 seasons. But most of the people who follow "America's Team" are people who latched on in the 1970s or the 1990s when the Cowboys were winning. I've talked to Cowboys fans who have never been to Texas, have never been to a game, etc. I HATE fair-weather, band-wagon fans. It's easy to be a fan when the team wins.

You lived in New York (which I didn't know), so enjoy your Yankees. It has nothing to do with Texas, Carl -- I am rooting for the Astros to win it all.

And I live in Wisconsin, but I've been an Eagles fan since I've been walking. I grew up in PA. I could send you a cheesehead, though, if you are interested.

--Rich

Later, I'll research the sales question. Last year, Time magazine said the Cowboys were number one - and showed a Russian teenager on Lenin Square wearing a Cowboy shirt.

Eagles fan, huh? And how many Super Bowls have they won?

If you send me a cheesehead, make sure it's already bashed in. I don't want to get that stuff all over my carpet.

Oh, being a Texas boy - now - I'm rooting for the Astrols just like you.

My wife asked, before the Yankees had lost: "Suppose the Yankees and the Astros play each other in the World Series. Who are you going for?"

Silly girl!

[greymule]

With 60 foot fields I don't understand why you need two guys to officiate the game.

The great bulk of the softball I do is one-man games. Decades ago, I used to do one-man doubleheaders in a semipro baseball league, too. The baseball was actually easier. The better the players, the easier it is to umpire.

[tmp44]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


I wouldn't know what HS mechanics are. I throw the manual out as soon as it arrives in the mail. Who covers a bases empty triple in PA?

PU.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by tmp44

PU.

We use the same mechanics in Texas. It's the best way to cover that play because an umpire is waiting for the runner instead of dipsy-doodling in a double pivot from A to B and B to C.

Even worse: Suppose R1 and the ball both go to third. The PU covers that play. But if the ball skips away and R1 tries for home, the plate umpire is supposed to take that play as well.

Yuk!

Having the PU cover third in this situation was the standard mechanic until the mid-sixties, when pro umpires, like me, began to climb their way up the charts. The weight charts, that is.

National League umpire Bill Williams was the first Doing It columnist for Referee magazine. He described the exact mechanics I'm talking about.

BTW: The pros don't even say A, B, or C. From the PBUC Umpire Manual, three-man crew, p. 87-88:

With a runner on first base only:

The first base umpire will position himself 6-8 feet beyond the first base bag with both feet in foul territory for the pick-off play at first base.

The third base umpire will move into the center of the infield and assume a position of either side of second base that is most comfortable for him to take the steal play at second base.

In Texas, we simply say: U2, short A; U3, deep C. (U1 is the plate umpire. I had nothing to do with that terminology.)

On the other hand, you'll find a great many wannabes who use the pro mechanics regardless of what their state system is: "Hey, that's the way we do in the NCAA Division 3, so I'm doing that in 5-A high school." That disregards the fact that a good high school team will scorch some of those walk-on, D3 college teams.

Wisconsin uses FED mechanics because Rich said he throws away his FED umpire manual as soon as it arrives. In the mid 1970s David Mosqueda, Jim Luther, and I wrote a mechanics system for our association. It took us about eight years to convince the state that our system was a better mousetrap. Texas adopted the Rio Grande Valley mechanics in the mid 80s and sold them to the NFHS in 1990.

Cornerstone: PU gets out from behind the plate. Whenever hte abandons home, the BU prepares to cover. We didn't invent that, you understand. We just realized that the old boys had done it right all along.

[Edited by Carl Childress on Oct 14th, 2005 at 06:22 PM]

[bkbjones]

Originally posted by Tim C
Bandit wrote:

"It's funny how baseball seems to be going more and more to the slot position behind the plate even in the majors, isn't that a "softball" mechanic? Hmmmmmmmm ? Maybe us robots do know something!"

---

Help me. What the he11 does this mean? Baseball has been working "the slot" siince 1938.

Another non-umpire answering a question.

Lah Me!

Honest I am out of here.

No, baseball has not been working the slot since 1938. for one, AL used the box while using the outside protector. I see more than one MLB umpire working over the top. I saw more than a few Mariner games this year and saw Mr. Emmel working what would best be described as the Paul Emmel, which is neither Gerry Davis nor the box nor scissors nor anything else.

[Tim C]

According to Bill Blair's definitive piece documenting the development of the modern chest protector a group of umpires started using a version of the "inside protector" in 1938 and by 1939 the umpires moved to what was eventually called "the slot"(these umpires eventually combined when MLB separated umpires into American and National League umpires and became "NL guys"). . . remember Bubba, there were once two sets of umpires that worked different mechanics.

"ASA Robots" are funny to watch.

[Edited by Tim C on Oct 14th, 2005 at 06:25 PM]

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by bkbjones

No, baseball has not been working the slot since 1938. for one, AL used the box while using the outside protector. I see more than one MLB umpire working over the top. I saw more than a few Mariner games this year and saw Mr. Emmel working what would best be described as the Paul Emmel, which is neither Gerry Davis nor the box nor scissors nor anything else.

You need to be careful because the umpire schools use the term "box" to describe a slot position, where the umpire instead of heel/toe is in the wrestler's balanced position. John McSherry used that. In his career, I think he missed three pitches.

Emmell is using the sliding box, not what you called the box (the AL true box). He starts in the slot and slides down while the pitch is on the way, moving more of his body behind the catcher. It's guaranteed to be the safest place for a slot umpire.

I used the AL box from 1954 until 2002. I switched to the Gerry Davis. I can't imagine using any other stance.

Of course, I get the bejezzus knocked out of me on a regular basis, but I am still fresh after four hours of plate work. That's because in GD, the skeleton supports the lock/load position rather than the muscles.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

[/b]We use the same mechanics in Texas. It's the best way to cover that play because an umpire is waiting for the runner instead of dipsy-doodling in a double pivot from A to B and B to C.

Even worse: Suppose R1 and the ball both go to third. The PU covers that play. But if the ball skips away and R1 tries for home, the plate umpire is supposed to take that play as well.

Yuk!

Having the PU cover third in this situation was the standard mechanic until the mid-sixties, when pro umpires, like me, began to climb their way up the charts. The weight charts, that is.

National League umpire Bill Williams was the first Doing It columnist for Referee magazine. He described the exact mechanics I'm talking about.

BTW: The pros don't even say A, B, or C. From the PBUC Umpire Manual, three-man crew, p. 87-88:

With a runner on first base only:

The first base umpire will position himself 6-8 feet beyond the first base bag with both feet in foul territory for the pick-off play at first base.

The third base umpire will move into the center of the infield and assume a position of either side of second base that is most comfortable for him to take the steal play at second base.

In Texas, we simply say: U2, short A; U3, deep C. (U1 is the plate umpire. I had nothing to do with that terminology.)

On the other hand, you'll find a great many wannabes who use the pro mechanics regardless of what their state system is: "Hey, that's the way we do in the NCAA Division 3, so I'm doing that in 5-A high school." That disregards the fact that a good high school team will scorch some of those walk-on, D3 college teams.

Wisconsin uses FED mechanics because Rich said he throws away his FED umpire manual as soon as it arrives. In the mid 1970s David Mosqueda, Jim Luther, and I wrote a mechanics system for our association. It took us about eight years to convince the state that our system was a better mousetrap. Texas adopted the Rio Grande Valley mechanics in the mid 80s and sold them to the NFHS in 1990.

Cornerstone: PU gets out from behind the plate. Whenever he abandons home, the BU prepares to cover the plate. We didn't invent that, you understand. We just realized that the old boys had done it right all along.

[Edited by Carl Childress on Oct 14th, 2005 at 06:22 PM] [/B]

[LilLeaguer]

Originally posted by Carl Childress
Doc:

A better plumber in my town has a pernicisou effect on all the other plumbers.

It's amazing how "communists" come out of the woodwork when someone begins using "capitalism" as it was intended.

It's a business, for crying out loud. They've already got profit sharing. All that nonsense is an attempt to keep losing franchises in business.

What's wrong with market corrections? If the Twins can't cut the mustard....

Don't use the mores of amateur sports in the same breath with the professional game.

Everybody seems upset that player salaries are sky high. The American way is for the worker to get what he can. If somebody wants to pay six million a year for a guy who bats .245, more powser to him.

I'm a great fan of both baseball and capitalism, but if baseball were a free market, the Twins would be able move to New York and compete for the dollars of that large market.

MLB uses its monopoly powers unequally to the benefit of some owners like Steinbrenner.

-LilLeaguer

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by orangeump
Ok everyone, you can all sit there on your couches with your heather grey sweat pants on and think you are a big leaguer, but come on. Are you going to tell me that Doug Eddings mechanics are flawed, seriously? Give me a break.
He didnt get a "no contact" mechanic as Harold Reynolds says, he didnt give a "delayed dead ball" mechanic as one genius poster suggested. Come on folks.

Are you SERIOUSLY going to sit there and say "a more experienced catcher would have tagged him"? That is a joke, right? Not sure, but I think Josh Paul might be slightly better than league ball catchers that we're used to, no? He is a major league catcher for petesake.

How about instead of focusing on the one play the one play the Tim McCarver and the super slow motion replays told you that he MIGHT have missed, why not focus on the job he did last night?
Great foul ball call early in the game when it was very close to being a foul tip, he got that one right didnt he? Hmmm, same principal at work there. In fact, AJ threw the ball to third like he caught it, yet Doug was right.

Great calll at the plate in the second, great look, great mechanic. Great job.
That entire crew did a great job last night, but that one call, thats gonna go down forever. Someone start talking about that play at second base that Ron Kulpa nailed...do it, I dare ya.

I'm sure Doug Eddings is a great umpire. I have no doubt about it.

But let's all agree on something - many umpires, once they arrive in the big leagues, start adopting their OWN, unique, style. Some are pointers, some are hammers, and some have weird variants. One umpire, I forget his name, gives a quick flash of his hand as if he is a cobra striking or swatting at flys.

I'll bet they were all much more standardized as AAA umpires. Or, at a minimum, less "colorful". Most AAA umpires don't try to distinguish themselves by having unique styles.

Doug Eddings has the following habit/routine when calling a swinging third strike. He extends his right arm parallel to the ground, ostensibly indicating that the pitch is a strike. Then he follows it up with the classic hammer.

Not really a big deal, but it IS unusual. I don't think I've ever seen an umpire give a double signal to indicate a swinging strike other than when you POINT at the batter on a checked swing.

Normally nobody notices or cares. It doesn't really matter that much. And Eddings' unorthodox mechanic had NOTHING to do with the chaos that ensued on the play. Josh Paul never looked at Eddings so he can hardly claim he was confused by some signal Eddings may have given.

Unfortunately for Doug Eddings, when something unusual happens in a high profile game, your mechanics sometimes go under a microscope. The very thing happpened that would most highlight Eddings' unusual strike mechanic. The question was whether he had already called the batter out. He gives what many would interpret as a "strike" call (the extended right arm) and then follows it up with what many would interpret as an "out" call (the hammer). The confusion is understandable notwithstanding that Eddings had been calling it this way the entire game.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[David Emerling]

Remember this thread?
Cardinals - Marlins game, batter interference?

This occurred during a regular season game. Chris Carpenter of the Cardinals was called out for batter's interference during a suicide squeeze.

The problem is that there were fewer than 2 outs and the *RUNNER* should have been called out - not the batter. The umpire blew the call and MLB admitted as much the following day.

The home plate umpire? ... Doug Eddings.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[mrm21711]

I am not an evaluator nor an expert but it seems that trouble always follows Eddings. His well publicized spat with Estrada of the Braves this year, as well as his inconsistent strike zone. Question is how did he get an LCS assignment?

The interestering thing is Jermaine Dye struck out on a pitch in the dirt the out before Pierzynski. Eddings held his right arm out, then gave the hammer when Dye was tagged. I think we can all agree that his mechanic was poor at the very best.