Dropped third strike; phantom tag?

umpyre007 · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 02, 2001, 10:05pm

FED rules; no outs; no runners on. Batter swings and misses strike three. Batter turns towards the third base dugout instead of attempting to reach first base. Catcher immediately tags the runner in the back with the catcher's mitt while holding the ball in his right hand. The batter has no idea that he has not been legally tagged out and continues to his dugout.

Do you (1) immediately rule and verbalize "no tag" when the improper tag occurs and wait to see what happens; or (2) say nothing and allow the batter to give himself up by entering the dugout?

JRutledge · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 02, 2001, 11:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by umpyre007
FED rules; no outs; no runners on. Batter swings and misses strike three. Batter turns towards the third base dugout instead of attempting to reach first base. Catcher immediately tags the runner in the back with the catcher's mitt while holding the ball in his right hand. The batter has no idea that he has not been legally tagged out and continues to his dugout.

Do you (1) immediately rule and verbalize "no tag" when the improper tag occurs and wait to see what happens; or (2) say nothing and allow the batter to give himself up by entering the dugout?

The batter seemed to give up on the play. If a batter gives up, the tag or no tag is irrelevant at that point.

But in the case of calling out a "no tag," I think you should not say a thing. That is in this situation or any situation unless the player is completely safe.

Whowefoolin · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 03, 2001, 12:35am

First of all, the batter should be watching the ball (if it is strike-looking) all the way to the catchers mitt.

Then the only signal should be an out sign if he is tagged. If you give no signal, then everyone should know that he is still "up".

So no, I don't think that a safe call should be given. Just watch, give no signal, and see what develops.

blarson · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 03, 2001, 10:37am

I didn't think you consider abandoment until he reaches the dugout on this. Based on that I have a no call. I'm curious to see what others think.

PeteBooth · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 03, 2001, 12:17pm

Originally posted by umpyre007
FED rules; no outs; no runners on. Batter swings and misses strike three. Batter turns towards the third base dugout instead of attempting to reach first base. Catcher immediately tags the runner in the back with the catcher's mitt while holding the ball in his right hand. The batter has no idea that he has not been legally tagged out and continues to his dugout.

Do you (1) immediately rule and verbalize "no tag" when the improper tag occurs and wait to see what happens; or (2) say nothing and allow the batter to give himself up by entering the dugout?

FED case book play 7-4-1 Situation A: With r1 on first and 2 outs B2 has 2 strikes and swings at the next pitch. F2 drops the ball and fails to throw to F3 at first.

Ruling: B2 is safe at first if he reaches first before the half-inning ends or before all infielders leave the diamond. He is out if he gives up by entering the bench or dugout area.

Using FED rules, according to the above case-book play, a runner does not give up until they are entering the bench or dugout area. In your case the batter turned toward the dugout steps which is not the same as actually entering the dugout steps so at this point B1 has not given up his right to run towards first.

Given that, when F2 did not execute the proper tag, I would say nothing. I would wait until the batter actually enetered the dugout or bench area before declaring the out.

It's the players responsibility to know that he / she can run to first if first base is unoccupied with less than 2 outs or if there are 2 outs.

If we say no tag, we have just tipped off the runner that hey I should run. I think the proper call on this play is a no call until B1 enteres the dugout or F2 completes the proper tag or throws to F3 before B1 reaches safely.

Pete Booth

umpyre007 · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 03, 2001, 10:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by PeteBooth
If we say no tag, we have just tipped off the runner that hey I should run. I think the proper call on this play is a no call until B1 enteres the dugout or F2 completes the proper tag or throws to F3 before B1 reaches safely.

Pete,

This is the point I was arguing with the Big Dogs. I felt that tipping off the batter would occur while they felt that every play needed a call.

Brent McLaren · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Apr 05, 2001, 09:51am

There is always the "That's nothing" vocal signal and a smallish "safe" visual signal.

It might be better then "no tag" which would be confusing to the batter who thinks he was legally tagged.

Letting it ride may also be appropriate especially if the batter was headed for the dugout prior to catcher's action. Sill, one of the manager's has made note of your "missed" call so I think some response is in order .... just don't point.

Brent

PeteBooth · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Apr 05, 2001, 12:43pm

Originally posted by Brent McLaren

Sill, one of the manager's has made note of your "missed" call so I think some response is in order .... just don't point.

Brent, how did we miss the call? F2 in effect didn't do anything as he did not properly execute a tag under the rules.

The batter basically gave himself up even though technically he didn't.

At this point, the player who is the smartest should be rewarded. While signal anything because no matter what we do we will be tipping our hands. The players decide the game so let them play.

If F2 makes the proper play reward with the out. If B1 starts to run and should get to first ahead of the tag or throw, then reward B1. I do not think that we missed a call here.

Pete Booth