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Old Wed May 18, 2005, 02:04pm
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I have been told/taught to use the timing signal with two outs and a runner on 2nd. If the purpose is to "inform" each other of the possibility of a timing play, why shouldn't it be used in other situations?

1) With 2 outs and R1 at first, there is a potential timing play if the BR hits for extra bases...

2) With 1 out and runners at 2nd and 3rd, there is a potential timing play if the BR is forced and a play made on the runner at 2nd...


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Old Wed May 18, 2005, 02:26pm
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Well,

I NEVER give (or answer) the "Time Signal" as it changes nothing to do with how you umpire.

HOWEVER:

I teach to give the signal whenever there are multiple runners and one out. If there are those that say "you must use the sign" then they can have no excuse for not giving it ANYTIME there are multiple runners on base and at least one out.

Any play with multiple runners and one out can wind up as a "Time Play."
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Old Wed May 18, 2005, 02:46pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matthew F
I have been told/taught to use the timing signal with two outs and a runner on 2nd. If the purpose is to "inform" each other of the possibility of a timing play, why shouldn't it be used in other situations?

1) With 2 outs and R1 at first, there is a potential timing play if the BR hits for extra bases...

2) With 1 out and runners at 2nd and 3rd, there is a potential timing play if the BR is forced and a play made on the runner at 2nd...


What's a time signal?

Just kidding ... we don't use it. As Tee said, you should be paying attention and know when there is a possibility of a timing play.

But if guys want to that's fine. Just saying what I've always done.

Thanks
David

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Old Wed May 18, 2005, 02:51pm
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Never used it. Never seen it from partner either.

IFF signal is extremely common, and backward-rotate signal slightly common when working 3-man. That's about it, unless I'm forgetting one.
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Old Wed May 18, 2005, 06:34pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matthew F
I have been told/taught to use the timing signal with two outs and a runner on 2nd. If the purpose is to "inform" each other of the possibility of a timing play, why shouldn't it be used in other situations?

1) With 2 outs and R1 at first, there is a potential timing play if the BR hits for extra bases...

2) With 1 out and runners at 2nd and 3rd, there is a potential timing play if the BR is forced and a play made on the runner at 2nd...


It could happen at other times, but it is most likely with R2 and 2 outs. It's standard mechanic around here, although not discussed in pre-game.
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Old Wed May 18, 2005, 07:42pm
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in my opinion.....

first and 3rd, 1 out.First off you gotta determine the ump that has catch/no-catch, then tag up and also the possibility of a timing play at the plate. I was taught this mechanic by a good friend that worked for PBUC, just keeps you on your toes. Working the sacks you can have the catch, retouch at first, a wacker coming into second and better have a quick sell on that cuz that runner at 3rd may or may not make it...........just stay on your toes
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Old Wed May 18, 2005, 09:09pm
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I'm just curious as why it's only (in my experience) used when you have a runner on 2nd with 2 outs?

If the purpose of the mechanic is to inform/confirm a possible timing play, why isn't it used for other possible non "2-out-man-on-2nd" timing play scenerios?

It sounds like a number of veteran umpires here don't use the timing play signal. I would almost think this is a mechanic for newer umpires (to help remind them about a potential timing play at the plate), but I've worked with several organizations in the Maryland area and they all use this signal.
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Old Wed May 18, 2005, 09:21pm
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Again,

I KNOW what is happening around me when I umpire.

NO PROCESS is changed when this wasteful signal is given.

Other signals give a road map of what should happen.

I am not a big signal guy at all.

Working two man also limits the amount of signals that need to be given.

We already talked about the IFF followed by "I got third on the tag."

Time Signal does not give direction, does not change the coverage, and certainly does not change either umpire mechanic . . . it is nothing more than telling someone something they already know.

It is kinda like giving the "Foul Tip" signal after a great big swinging strike . . . doesn't happen when I'm dishin'.



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Old Thu May 19, 2005, 01:15am
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Re: Again,

Quote:
Originally posted by Tim C
I KNOW what is happening around me when I umpire.

NO PROCESS is changed when this wasteful signal is given.

Other signals give a road map of what should happen.

I am not a big signal guy at all.

Working two man also limits the amount of signals that need to be given.

We already talked about the IFF followed by "I got third on the tag."

Time Signal does not give direction, does not change the coverage, and certainly does not change either umpire mechanic . . . it is nothing more than telling someone something they already know.

It is kinda like giving the "Foul Tip" signal after a great big swinging strike . . . doesn't happen when I'm dishin'.



That may be fine and dandy if you are working woth partners your regularly work with or if you are the PU. If you are the BU and the PU is someone you are not familiar with you should be more willing to give the watch a tap. If nothing else to ensure he is on the proper page as really a timing play is more for the PU than the BU as he is the one deciding the timing of a play really.

I have seen timing calls with R2 and 2 outs, R1 and R3 with 2 outs, R1 and 2 outs, R2 and R3 with 1 out, R1 and R3 with 1 out and R1 and R2 with 1 out as well bases loaded with no outs. There are a number of them really, just R2 with 2 outs is most common.
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Old Thu May 19, 2005, 07:33am
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Re: Again,

Quote:
Originally posted by Tim C
I KNOW what is happening around me when I umpire.

NO PROCESS is changed when this wasteful signal is given.

Other signals give a road map of what should happen.

I am not a big signal guy at all.

Working two man also limits the amount of signals that need to be given.

We already talked about the IFF followed by "I got third on the tag."

Time Signal does not give direction, does not change the coverage, and certainly does not change either umpire mechanic . . . it is nothing more than telling someone something they already know.

It is kinda like giving the "Foul Tip" signal after a great big swinging strike . . . doesn't happen when I'm dishin'.



I agree -- so I give it not as a separate signal, but combined with the others -- end the "rotation" signal by tapping the wrist, or pointing to the plate with one hand while tapping the wrist with the other, for example.

I don't give it with R3 and 2 outs -- I've never seen an R3 who couldn't make it home before BR passed first by a sufficient margin to be tagged out. (And, yes, I recognize that R3 could stumble and fall, and by the time he gets up it could be a "close" play.)



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Old Thu May 19, 2005, 07:51am
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Well,

In my area I seldom work with a partner more than once or twice a season. That is the way my association assigns.

The point of "knowing your partner" is a red herring.
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Old Thu May 19, 2005, 08:39am
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Originally posted by Matthew F

I have been told/taught to use the timing signal with two outs and a runner on 2nd. If the purpose is to "inform" each other of the possibility of a timing play, why shouldn't it be used in other situations?

1) With 2 outs and R1 at first, there is a potential timing play if the BR hits for extra bases...

2) With 1 out and runners at 2nd and 3rd, there is a potential timing play if the BR is forced and a play made on the runner at 2nd...



Umpiring Mechanics IMO is like learning Microsoft EXCEL, meaning there is the beginning stages and then the advanced stage.

When one first leans EXCEL you learn how to open up a spreadsheet, perform basic math calcs and save the file. When you get to the advanced stage, one knows how to import and export files, prepare graphs, etc.

Umpiring mechanics are similiar. In the beginning you learn the basics.

Example; even now when B1 gets hit with the pitch I haear umpires call Dead ball when the proper mechanic is to signal and say TIME. Same is true with hand signals.

The reason one signals the "timing play" with R2 and 2 outs is to make certain your partner on the bases gives the OUT call loud enough so that the Plate person hears it in determining whether or not the run counts. This is one of the drawbacks in a 2 person system. The base umpire is taking the "trail runner" while the Plate umpire is watching the lead runner touch home.

The PU can position him/herself properly to get a look at the runner touching and when the out is declared by his partner but not always depending upon the play.

Also, the signal is given especially in one's early stage of development to differentiate a Force play vs. a Timimg play.

As TEE mentioned, once you get experience and are working with experienced officials this is not a big deal and no real need for hand signals.

Pete Booth

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Old Thu May 19, 2005, 10:01am
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Re: Well,

Quote:
Originally posted by Tim C
In my area I seldom work with a partner more than once or twice a season. That is the way my association assigns.

The point of "knowing your partner" is a red herring.
Perhaps for you it is. But, I would think that with unfamiliar partners, the tendency would be to communicate/signal more, not less.

I have several partners with whom I often work 10 or more games per year. Pre-games and expectations are not the same as they are for people I've never seen, whose names I don't recognize.

Plus, with some partners it doesn't matter what is signalled. They won't do it anyway! That's nice to know.
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Old Thu May 19, 2005, 01:54pm
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Re: Again,



It is kinda like giving the "Foul Tip" signal after a great big swinging strike . . . doesn't happen when I'm dishin'.



[/B][/QUOTE]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
Come on Tee, you do the roundy-ring-em-up after a great wiff at the 3rd strike........LOL
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Old Sat May 21, 2005, 04:09am
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Re: Re: Well,

Quote:
Originally posted by ChapJim
Quote:
Originally posted by Tim C
In my area I seldom work with a partner more than once or twice a season. That is the way my association assigns.

The point of "knowing your partner" is a red herring.
Perhaps for you it is. But, I would think that with unfamiliar partners, the tendency would be to communicate/signal more, not less.

I have several partners with whom I often work 10 or more games per year. Pre-games and expectations are not the same as they are for people I've never seen, whose names I don't recognize.

Plus, with some partners it doesn't matter what is signalled. They won't do it anyway! That's nice to know.
I gotta agree. I have worked with a couple guys a number of times and don't give it or most other signals for that matter.. If I work with a guy I am not familiar with I feel like a 3B coach with the signals sometimes. Bout the time you don't signal you'll get caught with "your pants down" because your uninformed partner didn't do his job.

As far as the partner signalling or saying out load enough, I never relie on that. I get into an angle to see the runner score and the last out as best as possible, much like a tag up on a fly out. If my partner is using good timing he will be calling out a good couple seconds after the out, thus throwing the timing off. I prefer to see the out and touch of the plate myself instead of guessing if my partner yelled out immediately, 2 seconds after the out, 5 seconds after the out or whenever. And you cannot figure, well he calls out 2 seconds after the tag. Well maybe something happened and he has to wait a couple seconds more to call out. Not good. Get an angle.

[Edited by cowbyfan1 on May 23rd, 2005 at 12:37 AM]
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