Ball hits bat on ground

danreeves1973 · #1 (**permalink**) Wed May 18, 2005, 11:29am

Dixie League, using OBR.

no outs, no one on, 1-1 count, batter hits a popup, straight up over home plate. Ball had some incredible height. I'm PU. Batter drops his bat, heads for first, catcher comes up, watching the ball, tying to get under for the catch.

Ball comes down, catcher totally misses, never touched the ball. Ball hits the bat which the batter dropped and is laying in fair territory in front of the plate, three or so foot out. Ball richochets off the bat, straight into foul territory, about four foot up the line from home plate.

I call foul ball, bring the runner back, we have 1-2 count.

Did I get this one right?

UmpJM · #2 (**permalink**) Wed May 18, 2005, 11:45am

DanReeves,

Assuming that the bat was stationary (I'm guessing it was) at the time that the ball ricocheted and that the ball either "settled" in foul territory or touched something/someone while in foul territory, you most certainly did make the correct call.

JM

largeone59 · #3 (**permalink**) Wed May 18, 2005, 12:05pm

yeah sounds good to me too. we're hashing this out on the "2 calls" thread. See some opinions there also.

blueump · #4 (**permalink**) Wed May 18, 2005, 12:18pm

I'm gonna go out on a limb and disagree here. In FED ball at least!

NFHS rule (2-15-1d) states that a foul ball is one that "while over foul territory, touches...any object foreign to the natural ground"

I would then have to say a fair ball would be exactly the same but in "fair territory".

The bat is not part of the "natural ground". It becomes part of the playing field that all fielders must contend with.

I've never seen this, so I've never had to call anything like this (probably now I'll see it 3 times tonight!) but I'd probably judge this to be a fair ball.

I'm ready for my execution now!

UmpJM · #5 (**permalink**) Wed May 18, 2005, 12:26pm

blueump,

While you have posed a reasonable "train of logic" regarding the "foreign object", it is not correct.

While contact with a "foreign object" over foul territory does determine a batted ball's foul/fair status, the only "foreign objects" in fair territory where contact determines a batted ball's foul/fair status are the bases/bags (with the exception of home plate).

JM

blueump · #6 (**permalink**) Wed May 18, 2005, 12:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by CoachJM
blueump,

While you have posed a reasonable "train of logic" regarding the "foreign object", it is not correct.

While contact with a "foreign object" over foul territory does determine a batted ball's foul/fair status, the only "foreign objects" in fair territory where contact determines a batted ball's foul/fair status are the bases/bags (with the exception of home plate).

JM

Not stating this to cause an argument...again I may be wrong here....but what source are you using to call a bat a "non-foreign object". My rulebook uses the words "foreign to natural ground". Last time I looked, bats weren't growing out of the ground here in Michigan! LOL

blueump · #7 (**permalink**) Wed May 18, 2005, 12:47pm

How bout this one... (I'm stilling studying here...)

NFHS Rule 2-5-1f

"A fair ball - while on or over fair territory, touches the...player, their clothing or equipment"

Doesn't distinguish between attached or detached equipment.

I still got a fair ball. Am I alone on this?

UmpJM · #8 (**permalink**) Wed May 18, 2005, 12:54pm

blueump,

I agree with you that the bat is a "foreign object". However, contact with a stationary bat (even though a foreign object) does not determine a batted ball's fair/foul status. Contact with a person while the ball is in fair territory does determine it's fair/foul status.

JM

(edited to correct typo)

blueump · #9 (**permalink**) Wed May 18, 2005, 12:58pm

Quote:

Originally posted by CoachJM
blueump,

I agree with you that the bat is a "foreign object". However, contact with a stationary bat (even though a foreign object) does not determine a batted ball's fair/foul status. Contact with a person while the ball is in fair territory does determine it's fair/foul status.

JM

(edited to correct typo)

Then the rule is incorrect? (NFHS 2-5-1f)It looks pretty obvious to me. Anything written to back up your interpretation?

Matthew F · #10 (**permalink**) Wed May 18, 2005, 01:15pm

Got to love the NFHS Case Book (brought it to work to review for playoffs)...

2.16.1 Situation B: B1's bunt rolls up the first-base line where it hits B1's bat that was lying on the ground in fair territory. The ball deflects into foul terriory. Is the ball fair or foul?

Ruling: The ball is foul, provided the bat was not placed there intentionally. The bat is considered to be part of the playing field. (2-5-1, 2-8-1, 8-4-1d)

That's what I was taught, however I don't see the rules being explicit in this case. I was also taught that if the batter makes contact with the ball a second time with the bat while in the batter's box, it's a foul; If one foot is completely outside the batter's box, he's out - regardless of intent. For NFHS at least, I would rule based on intent if the bat were still rolling/moving.

[Edited by Matthew F on May 18th, 2005 at 02:17 PM]

blueump · #11 (**permalink**) Wed May 18, 2005, 01:19pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Matthew F
Got to love the NFHS Case Book (brought it to work to review for playoffs)...

2.16.1 Situation B: B1's bunt rolls up the first-base line where it hits B1's bat that was lying on the ground in fair territory. The ball deflects into foul terriory. Is the ball fair or foul?

Ruling: The ball is foul, provided the bat was not placed there intentionally. The bat is considered to be part of the playing field. (2-5-1, 2-8-1, 8-4-1d)

That's the written stuff I need...documentation. Point taken, I'll call the ball foul.

danreeves1973 · #12 (**permalink**) Wed May 18, 2005, 02:09pm

Thanks for all the response. In my case the bat was stationary, runner had almost made it to first before the ball came down, ball had some serious height. Was the first time I'd ever seen it as well.

LMan · #13 (**permalink**) Wed May 18, 2005, 04:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by CoachJM
blueump,

While you have posed a reasonable "train of logic" regarding the "foreign object", it is not correct.

While contact with a "foreign object" over foul territory does determine a batted ball's foul/fair status, the only "foreign objects" in fair territory where contact determines a batted ball's foul/fair status are the bases/bags (with the exception of home plate).

JM

dont forget....a batted ball that strikes the pitcher's plate and goes foul is a foul ball.

UmpJM · #14 (**permalink**) Wed May 18, 2005, 04:06pm

LMan,

A perfect illustration of the point I was (apparently ineffectively) trying to make.

I actually saw this happen once during a game I was coaching!! I was quite impressed when the (youth) umpires correctly ruled it a foul ball.

JM

(edited for spelling)

akalsey · #15 (**permalink**) Wed May 18, 2005, 04:20pm

But a batted ball that strikes in fair territory a helmet that's fallen off R3 is fair regardless of where it ends up. So I'd argue that under OBR, absent a rule to the contrary, I'd rule fair on a ball hitting a bat and then going foul.

Regarding the pitcher's plate thing, I once saw a ground rule double that never left the infield. The ball struck third and rebounded into the dugout.