IFF OBR vs FED

[Spence]

If the umpire fails to say "infield fly" and the ball is dropped, does OBR handle the resulting play differently than FED?

If, for example, the runners ran when the ball hit and a runner was tagged out, how is it handled in each?

My understanding is that the failure by the umpire to call it does not mean its not in effect and that any outs resulting from the BR running to the next base stand.

Is that true? Both FED and OBR?

[Tim C]

"If the umpire fails to say "infield fly" and the ball is dropped, does OBR handle the resulting play differently than FED?"

No, it is still considered an IFF.

"If, for example, the runners ran when the ball hit and a runner was tagged out, how is it handled in each?"

It is handled exactly the same as if the umpire had called "IFF" and all pertaining rules are the same.

"My understanding is that the failure by the umpire to call it does not mean its not in effect and that any outs resulting from the BR running to the next base stand.

Is that true?"

Asked and answered, your honor.

"Both FED and OBR?"

And as in my initial answer, yes.






[Edited by Tim C on Apr 21st, 2005 at 10:42 AM]

[Spence]

Your quick response is appreciated.However, I'm not sure which of the questions I asked you actually answered.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Spence
If the umpire fails to say "infield fly" and the ball is dropped, does OBR handle the resulting play differently than FED?

If, for example, the runners ran when the ball hit and a runner was tagged out, how is it handled in each?

My understanding is that the failure by the umpire to call it does not mean its not in effect and that any outs resulting from the BR running to the next base stand.

Is that true? Both FED and OBR?

I disagree with T on this.

In FED, it's still an Infield Fly -- the batter is out and any other outs stand.

In OBR, if the defense gets zero or one outs, the play stands. If the defense gets two (or three) outs, then enforce the infield fly and return the runners to the TOP base. The OBR interp is based on the reason for the rule -- to protect the offense from a "cheap" double play. If the defense doesn't get the DP, then there's nothing to protect. If the defense does get the DP, then go back and protect the offense.

[Tim C]

Respectfully (almost reverently) Bob, I simply agree to disagree with you on this complex issue.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

I disagree with T on this.

In FED, it's still an Infield Fly -- the batter is out and any other outs stand.

In OBR, if the defense gets zero or one outs, the play stands. If the defense gets two (or three) outs, then enforce the infield fly and return the runners to the TOP base. The OBR interp is based on the reason for the rule -- to protect the offense from a "cheap" double play. If the defense doesn't get the DP, then there's nothing to protect. If the defense does get the DP, then go back and protect the offense.

Bob:

I don't have my books with me, from where do you get that "OBR interp"?

[Tim C]

. . . that was my NEXT question as all three of us share the same off-line resources.

[mcrowder]

I must admit, that's the first time I've ever heard that OBR interp. I see the logic in it... but I've never heard it before.

Note to original poster - for any of this correction-stuff to occur, the UMPIRE must believe it was truly an IFF, that he failed to call. On some of these, coaches think it was IFF, but umpire does not. Remember, IFF is a judgement call.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Tim C
. . . that was my NEXT question as all three of us share the same off-line resources.

Apparently not. You can find Bob's ruling in the BRD, Section 258: Fitzpatrick: The umpires must insure the intent of the rule is enforced: They must protect the offensive team from an "undeserved" double play.That could require a belated "infield fly" ruling and revocation of subsequent action. Fitz: "Above all, do not allow a double play that should not occur." The NCAA interpretation is the same. (Thurston, phone call to cc, 2/29/00)

Play: R1, R2, 0 out: B1 hits a towering pop fly on the infield. F4 moves only a step or two before settling under the ball. Inexplicably, the umpires fail to declare the infield fly. At the last moment F4 steps back, and the ball falls to the ground untouched; both R1 and R2 attempt to advance. F4 recovers the ball on one bounce, tags R1, and throws to third in time for a tag of R2 sliding in. Ruling: In FED, the defense has secured a triple play. In NCAA and OBR, because the umpires failed to declare the infield fly, the defense has recorded an “undeserved” double play. Therefore, the umpires must declare a dead ball, rule B1 out on the infield fly, and return R1 and R2 to TOP.

[Tim C]

Scene opens with Tee, head hanging down, pushing around a pebble with his old High Top Chuck Taylor Tennis Shoe:

"Shucks, I thought I knew everything about the rules!"

Camera tightens on Tee's lower lip as it shakes and a tear runs down past that trembling lip.

"I guess it is back to the drawing board . . . or BETTER YET, don't work any games EVER with OBR or FED, or . . ."

As the camera backs off and shows a shadow form of Tee set against the setting sun,

"My life as an umpire has taken a serious set back . . . I guess I need to buy the darn old BRD . . ."

WHICH IS AVAILABLE FROM THIS WEBSITE FOR JUST A FEW DOLLARS.

Thanks CC,

[Edited by Tim C on Apr 21st, 2005 at 08:14 PM]

[mbyron]

Tee: that's the most touching scene I've ever witnessed in umpiring. Really got me, right here where it counts.

You missed your calling, babe. Do you have an agent? Call my people, we'll do lunch.

Oh, and thanks Bob and Carl: VERY interesting info about IFF and what happens if you don't call it.

[Carl Childress]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tim C
[B]Scene opens with Tee, head hanging down, pushing around a pebble with his old High Top Chuck Taylor Tennis Shoe:

"Shucks, I thought I knew everything about the rules!"

Camera tightens on Tee's lower lip as it shakes and a tear runs down past that trembling lip.

"I guess it is back to the drawing board . . . or BETTER YET, don't work any games EVER with OBR or FED, or . . ."

As the camera backs off and shows a shadow form of Tee set against the setting sun,

"My life as an umpire has taken a serious set back . . . I guess I need to buy the darn old BRD . . ."

WHICH IS AVAILABLE FROM THIS WEBSITE FOR JUST A FEW DOLLARS.

Thanks CC,

Tee, thanks for the plug. We have the 2005 BRD available through October.



[Edited by Carl Childress on Apr 21st, 2005 at 11:32 PM]

[GarthB]

Apparently not. You can find Bob's ruling in the BRD, Section 258: Fitzpatrick: The umpires must insure the intent of the rule is enforced: They must protect the offensive team from an "undeserved" double play.That could require a belated "infield fly" ruling and revocation of subsequent action. Fitz: "Above all, do not allow a double play that should not occur." The NCAA interpretation is the same. (Thurston, phone call to cc, 2/29/00)

Carl, I've understood that, but it isn't the portion of Bob's reply I was questioning.

"In OBR, if the defense gets zero or one outs, the play stands. "

I don't find a printed reference for this. Or is it just "understood?"

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by GarthB
Apparently not. You can find Bob's ruling in the BRD, Section 258: Fitzpatrick: The umpires must insure the intent of the rule is enforced: They must protect the offensive team from an "undeserved" double play.That could require a belated "infield fly" ruling and revocation of subsequent action. Fitz: "Above all, do not allow a double play that should not occur." The NCAA interpretation is the same. (Thurston, phone call to cc, 2/29/00)

Carl, I've understood that, but it isn't the portion of Bob's reply I was questioning.

"In OBR, if the defense gets zero or one outs, the play stands. "

I don't find a printed reference for this. Or is it just "understood?"

It's understood - as I understand it. The ONLY circumstance when an umpire would fix a botched infield fy call (it's an IF but not declared) occurs when the defense gets a double play.

So, if they score zero or one out....

[Tim C]

I have been getting e-mail through this site for months!