3-man

[scyguy]

mentioned on another thread that I have a tourn Sat and the other two guys want to work 3-man. A little history, these two guys worked alot of my games back when I was a coach. In fact, at one time we taught at the same HS. I want to leave a good impression after the tourn is over. So, fellow posters, any good advice on mechanics?

With no runners?
U3 always takes infield on basehit?
flyball responsibilities?
PU take third on triple?
U2 trail runner on double?

U2 always at first with R1, unless we only have R3?

U3 in B with R2? In C with R1 and R2?

PU rotate to third with R1 and R3, but stays home with only R1?

I know the situations are endless, but any advice is welcomed. Again, I want to look professional and leave a good impression. What better place to seek help than here? With all of the brain power available, I would be missing an opportunity if I did not ask.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by scyguy
mentioned on another thread that I have a tourn Sat and the other two guys want to work 3-man. A little history, these two guys worked alot of my games back when I was a coach. In fact, at one time we taught at the same HS. I want to leave a good impression after the tourn is over. So, fellow posters, any good advice on mechanics?

With no runners?
U3 always takes infield on basehit?
flyball responsibilities?
PU take third on triple?
U2 trail runner on double?

U2 always at first with R1, unless we only have R3?

U3 in B with R2? In C with R1 and R2?

PU rotate to third with R1 and R3, but stays home with only R1?

I know the situations are endless, but any advice is welcomed. Again, I want to look professional and leave a good impression. What better place to seek help than here? With all of the brain power available, I would be missing an opportunity if I did not ask.

With all respect, after reading your last posts, I get the feeling that you are just coming to the 90' diamond or you've been off for a long time. It seems that you are biting off more than you can chew so my best advise to you is to go watch a NCAA 3 man crew or a Minor League game. There you will see the correct procedures and you should take notes. It is a big mistake to work a 3 man crew if you have the questions that you had with a 2 man system. I've seen games turned into complete shambles because a 3 man crew screwed up positioning. And it is not fun for the players either. If even one of you screw up the rotation on a play, it could mean the difference between a correct call or a disaster. A 3 man crew is the hardest to work because it all depends on 3 experienced umpires. I'd rather see you do a 4 man crew, but that's my opinion as an instructor.

You state you want to leave a good impression - sometimes, the best one is "I'm not ready for this".



[Edited by ozzy6900 on Apr 13th, 2005 at 10:43 AM]

[bob jenkins]

I agree with Ozzy.

Also, call the umpires U1, U3 and UIC (or PU). The FED nomencalture for umpires is just as confusing as the FED nomenclature for baserunners.

If you still do the game, work the plate. It's the position most similar to 2-person. Remember these rules:

1) If one of the umpires goes out, revert to 2-person.

2) Rotate to third on R1 and a hit; R1&R3 and a hit; R1&R2 and a caught fly to the outfield; no runners and a triple (most of this is just like two-person).

3) With no runners, if R1 goes out, follow BR to first. You have any plays there (again, just like two-person).

[scyguy]

Oz,
in all fairness, the questions I asked about the 2-man dealt with the problems I encountered with the manual. They were different from what I was taught and used. I was trying to get feedback on some of the differences.

I did not just fall off the turnip truck. I use this forum to double and triple check information with some of the greatest minds. In my area we have no feedback, no association, no communication. Do I ask some stupid questions that later I think, "I knew that"? Sure, but who is harmed? I verify my thoughts, get constructive feedback, and noone is hurt by it.

You think I am in my first year, fine. If you don't want to give constructive advice, fine. You, too, use this forum to better educated yourself. You take time out of your busy day to share your knowledge. I am grateful for people like you.

Let me ask you OZ, do you work 3-man often? If so, you are fortunate. This means you work in an area that pays for 3 umpires. Here, it does not happen often. Sat we are taking the pay for three 2-man games to work four three-man games(I don't know if that make sense).

Bottom line, I know who I am. I know that I am good. I know that I need to continue to learn. If I look like a moron on this forum, so be it.

[cbfoulds]

Whoa, horsey!!

ozzy's right: 3-man IS NOT easier than 2.

When one guy screws up in 3-man, VERY bad things happen; and 3-man seldom gets used in no-count games. Doing your first 3-man w/o a clinic or scrimage to practice is a recipe for embarassment.

If you are comitted/ determined to do the game: Find out what system your crew is planning to use ["we'll go over it in the pre-game" is a BAD sign in response to you question]; buy, borrow, beg or steal the book to read; do whatever you have to do to get the plate [fewer ways to blow a coverage]; and remember to Pause, Read, React to the base umps as well as the play.

EDTI>>>>>>>
The above written before reading scyguy's latest.

scy: not sure of your background; your post to start this sounded like you were about to take your very first 3-man w/o, as I said a clinic or scrimage.

If that presumption is wrong, apologies: but here's why 3 of us had the same impression [and it's mostly NOT your other posts on this Forum]-

3-man is more dependent than any other system for all the umpires being on the same page in order that it to work correctly. Asking questions about mechanics HERE is probably the LEAST useful place to get info. for your game. What you need [to get prepared for a game] to know is not what WE think the correct 3-man coverages and rotations are, but what YOUR PARTNERS think is correct.

What is nice about more than 2 umpires, is minor deviations from "best practices" are not a serious problem, as long as all 3 guys are working the same "deviation". But the first time BOTH BU's go out on a deep fly ball, or end up inside with a trouble catch in the outfield, or converge, not knowing who's got 2d, somebody's gonna get hurt.

[Edited by cbfoulds on Apr 13th, 2005 at 11:23 AM]

[scyguy]

Bob,
let me get this straight. On the "coverage" thread, you pointed out that my questions about the 2-man showed the problems with the NFHS manual. Now, you agree with OZ that I am "new to the 90'"? It may not mean anything to you, but because I have such respect for your knowledge,that is a very sharp dagger you have.

I've done 3-man before. In fact, I worked the legion varsity districts last summer with two MVC umpires that thought I did an outstanding job. I will be fine Sat. and I know that I will. I was trying to discuss 3-man to reenter the info in the brain. Pardon me for wanting to be prepared.

[Rich]

Originally posted by scyguy
Bob,
let me get this straight. On the "coverage" thread, you pointed out that my questions about the 2-man showed the problems with the NFHS manual. Now, you agree with OZ that I am "new to the 90'"? It may not mean anything to you, but because I have such respect for your knowledge,that is a very sharp dagger you have.

I've done 3-man before. In fact, I worked the legion varsity districts last summer with two MVC umpires that thought I did an outstanding job. I will be fine Sat. and I know that I will. I was trying to discuss 3-man to reenter the info in the brain. Pardon me for wanting to be prepared.

The best way to be prepared is to look at each baserunner scenario and each batted ball scenario and talk through the possibilities.

Bases Empty: Fly ball to the outfield -- if U1 goes out, the PU takes the BR to first base, watches the touch of the base, takes any throw back in to first base. U3 comes up to second base and has the BR at second and third base. Once the BR reaches second, the PU retreats back to the plate.

If U3 goes out, revert to 2-man with U1 pivoting in and taking the BR all the way to third.

Clean hit -- U1 watches the touch of first from the outside, U3 comes up to second, the PU has the BR going into third and as soon as the BR commits to third, U1 slides down in foul ground to cover the plate.

We can continue this, but I'd rather answer specific questions.

--Rich

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by scyguy
Oz,
in all fairness, the questions I asked about the 2-man dealt with the problems I encountered with the manual. They were different from what I was taught and used. I was trying to get feedback on some of the differences.

I did not just fall off the turnip truck. I use this forum to double and triple check information with some of the greatest minds. In my area we have no feedback, no association, no communication. Do I ask some stupid questions that later I think, "I knew that"? Sure, but who is harmed? I verify my thoughts, get constructive feedback, and noone is hurt by it.

You think I am in my first year, fine. If you don't want to give constructive advice, fine. You, too, use this forum to better educated yourself. You take time out of your busy day to share your knowledge. I am grateful for people like you.

Let me ask you OZ, do you work 3-man often? If so, you are fortunate. This means you work in an area that pays for 3 umpires. Here, it does not happen often. Sat we are taking the pay for three 2-man games to work four three-man games(I don't know if that make sense).

Bottom line, I know who I am. I know that I am good. I know that I need to continue to learn. If I look like a moron on this forum, so be it.

Sorry, but through the magic of data communications, I can only conclude with what I read. I did say "with all respect" so I did not mean any malace. I made no accusations, just observations so let's leave it at that.

I did state that 3 man is one of the most difficult crews to work on and Bob Jenkins backed that up. His advice is simple, do the plate, watch your crew and go to the spot where the umpre is not!

I don't care if you have 1 year or 30 years in this business, if you've never worked a 3 man crew before, you're asking for trouble. Now let me add that even those of us who occasionally work 3 man, we try to always work with the same people. If not we get to the game site at least a hour early to go over everything. It is not as easy as it looks.
Not convinced, here's one for you. No one on, no outs. B1 rips a hot liner to left center field. U3 buys a ticket to the game and watches the action. U2 is waiting for B1 at 1st as he should. F8 muffs the ball on the ground and B1 thinks 2. U3 is still in La-La land. I'm the UIC and I'm already heading toward 2nd. I know U3 has a bad knee so he's never going to make it. I make the call on a whacker and get the out. We got lucky!

Sorry if you took me the wrong way but then I tell it the way I see it. Find another umpire and work a 4 man crew - it's safer.

Edited after reading scyguy's last post

Okay, you've done this before and you do Legion. That means you must have something on the ball. You came here for advise and with what you brought, I gave to you what I would give to anyone personally. Good luck and I hope it all works out for you. By the way, U3 that screwed up our rotation was a 30 year member of our HS board and an ex-Minor League umpire. We worked 3 man many times together - he just messed up one time and it almost spelled disaster.
Let us know how it all turns out.

[Edited by ozzy6900 on Apr 13th, 2005 at 12:06 PM]

[scyguy]

thanks again Rich. What about R1 and R2, U3 in C. Base hit, UIC stays home U3 takes R1 into 3B. Does U1 swing in behind BR after touching 1B and take him into 2B or is U3 resp for both R1 and BR?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by scyguy
Bob,
let me get this straight. On the "coverage" thread, you pointed out that my questions about the 2-man showed the problems with the NFHS manual. Now, you agree with OZ that I am "new to the 90'"? It may not mean anything to you, but because I have such respect for your knowledge,that is a very sharp dagger you have.

No. I agree with Ozzy that 3-person is difficult to work / games have been turned into shambles, etc.

I've done 3-man before. In fact, I worked the legion varsity districts last summer with two MVC umpires that thought I did an outstanding job. I will be fine Sat. and I know that I will. I was trying to discuss 3-man to reenter the info in the brain. Pardon me for wanting to be prepared.

That's not the way I read your post. It certainly read to me like "I've not done this before --- help!"

thanks again Rich. What about R1 and R2, U3 in C. Base hit, UIC stays home U3 takes R1 into 3B. Does U1 swing in behind BR after touching 1B and take him into 2B or is U3 resp for both R1 and BR?

U1 pivots and takes BR to second. If you go behind, you won't (likely) catch up to the BR. Be sure U3 and U1 exchange the "reverse rotation" signal prior to the play (the specific signal that's used will depend on the area).

[Rich]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

No. I agree with Ozzy that 3-person is difficult to work / games have been turned into shambles, etc.

That's not the way I read your post. It certainly read to me like "I've not done this before --- help!"

U1 pivots and takes BR to second. If you go behind, you won't (likely) catch up to the BR. Be sure U3 and U1 exchange the "reverse rotation" signal prior to the play (the specific signal that's used will depend on the area).

What Bob said regarding the mechanic.

For me, the signal has always been a two handed slide given by U3 in C to the plate umpire and U1 in A. This is one situation where the umpires have to know what's going on in advance -- it's more rare in 3-man that U1 pivots in on a clean hit so the crew needs to remind itself.

Three of us split two checks on Saturday and worked a HS game. The only problem we had were the half-dozen fly balls hit right at (or right near) F8 -- which umpire goes out? We managed to work through that because we pregamed that U1 would read off of U3.

[scyguy]

OZ, if I am U1 and I see U3 freeze, then I quickly treat it as if he went out on a fly. I button, and take runner into 2B. This appears to be a simple read.

[LMan]

"No matter what happens, someone will find a way to take it too seriously." - SW

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by scyguy
OZ, if I am U1 and I see U3 freeze, then I quickly treat it as if he went out on a fly. I button, and take runner into 2B. This appears to be a simple read.

Simple is it? Let's take it down.

1. You are U1, so you are going to go 2SF, watch the BR touch 1st. (because as U1, your eyes are on the BR all the way to the bag)

2. Now you realize the U3 froze, so with the BR runnning at full speed you are going button hook behind the BR and take this guy to 2nd? I don't even know young, in shape Minor League umpires that can do that.

3. Your UIC already saw the problem with U3 and reacted by going to 2nd base.

4. Your UIC left the plate and you released the BR by observng his touch of 1st. U1 now has to cover home!

Not as easy as it seems. Even when a mistake is made, the rotation must still be completed properly or the whole system breaks down. There is clockwise rotation and conterclockwise rotation and it all has to be completed or the crew is up $hit's creek without a paddle!

Like I said (and you are proving this with every post), the 3 man system can easily turn into a complete disaster! But Good Luck!

[scyguy]

Originally posted by ozzy6900

Simple is it? Let's take it down.

1. You are U1, so you are going to go 2SF, watch the BR touch 1st. (because as U1, your eyes are on the BR all the way to the bag)

2. Now you realize the U3 froze, so with the BR runnning at full speed you are going button hook behind the BR and take this guy to 2nd? I don't even know young, in shape Minor League umpires that can do that.

3. Your UIC already saw the problem with U3 and reacted by going to 2nd base.

4. Your UIC left the plate and you released the BR by observng his touch of 1st. U1 now has to cover home!

Not as easy as it seems. Even when a mistake is made, the rotation must still be completed properly or the whole system breaks down. There is clockwise rotation and conterclockwise rotation and it all has to be completed or the crew is up $hit's creek without a paddle!

Like I said (and you are proving this with every post), the 3 man system can easily turn into a complete disaster! But Good Luck!

ok OZ humor me, what is 2SF? and why would I watch BR from plate to bag that is the UIC's responsibility. I pause, read U3 is froze, then react with the pivot.