Gorilla Stance

[scyguy]

got it. It is there, I just did not read it with a clear mind. "down at his side or behind his back" is straight forward. Thanks guys. I will call it!!

[Tim C]

It is difficult to offer you advice on "proof" of the ruling.

The rule book is clear as to where the hand must be . . . the term "Gorilla Arm" (which I find distasteful -- it is attacking the fine conduct of "real" gorillas everywhere) makes people take the issue less seriously.

It was explained to me that FED wants the rule called and are concerned that "the hanging arm" could cause a runner to mistake the intent and think it is a throwing arm for a pickoff. (That is quite a stretch if you ask me).

I would NEVER carry a rule book onto the field with me so I do not understand why you would need to print the OFFICIAL interpretation off the NFHS website.

The rule is the rule and, and cb mentions, if your local group has different feelings about calling the rule THEN ask them to consult the "actual" POE about professionalism.

[ChapJim]

Originally posted by Kaliix
What exactly is the reasoning behind making this a balk? Is there some advantage gained by the pitcher by having his hand hanging down versus at his side or behind his back?

I am honestly not trying to be argumentative, I am just trying to understand the reason for the rule.

The common response from coaches, once you've convinced them there is such a rule, is "why?"

I can think of one possible reason, but there may be others. An arm hanging free, with or without the ball, is unlikely to cause a baserunner any problems. He will know when the pitcher is not set, and when he comes set. However, if instead of having the arm hanging free, the pitcher bends his elbow a bit, you may have a highly deceptive situation, depending on where the other hand is. A runner at 1B may not be able to tell if a RHP has his hands apart or together. That is of course the point of FED's "pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back" or OBR's functionally equivalent "the pitcher shall have one hand at his side or behind his back." Two different ways to accomplish the same thing.

Right or wrong, that explanation has been good enough to satisfy every coach who has asked.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Kaliix
What exactly is the reasoning behind making this a balk? Is there some advantage gained by the pitcher by having his hand hanging down versus at his side or behind his back?

I am honestly not trying to be argumentative, I am just trying to understand the reason for the rule.

The reasoning is simple: FED wants the runner at first to be able to tell where the ball is, hand or glove. If it's in the glove, the runner can lead off a small step farther because of the transfer time lost. That's why a well-trained pitcher always has the ball in his hand. If it's not at the side or behind his back, it's a balk.

The "gorilla" stance has ALWAYS been a balk by black-letter law; we've just never called it.

Until now.

[largeone59]

Also, if you combine the gorilla arm stance with the new "quick shoulder turn is legal" rule, you can REALLY deceive the runner if the arm is hanging loosely when you whip around to check the runner.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by largeone59
Also, if you combine the gorilla arm stance with the new "quick shoulder turn is legal" rule, you can REALLY deceive the runner if the arm is hanging loosely when you whip around to check the runner.

I had not considered this. Of course, you've nailed this call!

As they say on ESPN: 5'8", 245. Don't give me any "largeone" crap. I know who's large. Me.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

I had not considered this. Of course, you've nailed this call!

As they say on ESPN: 5'8", 245. Don't give me any "largeone" crap. I know who's large. Me.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by largeone59
Also, if you combine the gorilla arm stance with the new "quick shoulder turn is legal" rule, you can REALLY deceive the runner if the arm is hanging loosely when you whip around to check the runner.

In CT we just tell the coach that his Gorilla is acting way out of the ordinary and turning his shoulders that are connected to his "hanging arms", "quickly", is a BALK.

But then again I am begining to find out they have "ground rule triples" here too. So mabey the animals are running the asylum????????????

[mbyron]

Originally posted by Tim C
The rule book is clear as to where the hand must be . . . the term "Gorilla Arm" (which I find distasteful -- it is attacking the fine conduct of "real" gorillas everywhere) makes people take the issue less seriously.

Tee, I feel your pain about the gorillas. Now: just think how the poor "real" rats must feel...

[Daryl H. Long]

Don't care what Papa C or other think about the perceived deception of the gorilla stance as it has been called. It has not been specifically prohibited in many codes. My suspicions are that a player cried after being picked off the base so the NF came up with an interpretation so crying would be kept to a minimum. "There's no crying in baseball".

The bottom line is the NFHS Baseball rules committee is a bunch of people who I believe have never ever stepped onto the field of play, and if they have they were clueless as to which sport the were officiating.

I have questioned their logic in numerous situations in which they interpret the rules to require a balk call, but they never give me a rules citation to support their ruling. Instead they say "it is not included in what they can do" therefore is prohibited. But they are selective as to what is prohibited. I could give many examples but one will suffice.

Example 1: The rule says the pitcher shall take his sign with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate. It does not say he can shake his head yes or no to accept or reject the sign. But that is allowed.

If players/umpires can not grasp the balk concept, that is discern the action which REQUIRES the pitcher to deliver the ball to the plate then they have no business being on the field.

The rules committee has constantly taken the fun out of the game with ridiculous rules all under the guise of player safety. Prohibiting huddling, players on field during DEAD BALL to congratulate a home run hitter, et.al. I'm all for player safety but they are taking it way too far. The sport has inherent risks and if anyone is so afraid of litigation then get off the field.

Sorry I digressed a little.

Back to balks: In announcing the new rule allowing the pitcher to turn shoulders the NFHS Rules committee patted themselves on the back, commending themselves for providing ONE LESS WAY TO BALK. (See cover page of NFHS/RefereeMagazine Baseball Guide 2005)

That my friends still leaves 29 ways to balk in HS. What is wrong with that picture?

You don't see a problem with 29 ways to balk????

Quickly now...name them.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
Don't care what Papa C or other think about the perceived deception of the gorilla stance as it has been called. It has not been specifically prohibited in many codes.

Now, I know I promised to bow out of this thread, but...

Daryl:

Here's a quote from FED 6-1-3: "In the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either his gloved hand or his pitching hand. His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back." [my emphasis]

How does that square with the gorilla stance, where the pitcher's hand is in front of his body?

Regardless of your opinion, wouldn't you agree that a pitcher who does not have his pitching hand at his side or behind his back is breaking the rule?

Any infraction of 6-1-3 creates an immediate dead ball. "...If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk."

Remember, now, I don't want opinion. Just this:

1. Does the gorilla stance meet the requirements of 6-1-3?
2. If it doesn't, isn't that a balk? (6-1-3 Penalty)

BTW: OBR requires the pitcher's hand to be "on his side." 8.01b. (Curiously enough, that's just a "Don't do that" because there is no penalty listed!)

NCAA requires the pitcher's hand to be at his side or behind his back. Same as FED. (9-1b-1)

I got that information from the 2005 BRD, guys. I've discovered it's an amazing little book.

[Edited by Carl Childress on Apr 12th, 2005 at 06:41 AM]

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
Example 1: The rule says the pitcher shall take his sign with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate. It does not say he can shake his head yes or no to accept or reject the sign. But that is allowed.

That has to be the dumbest example ever. The rule also dosen't say anything the pitcher being alowed to have his jaw move if he is chewing gum. And yet the Federation allows this. What are they coming to?

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
The rules committee has constantly taken the fun out of the game with ridiculous rules all under the guise of player safety. Prohibiting huddling, players on field during DEAD BALL to congratulate a home run hitter, et.al. I'm all for player safety but they are taking it way too far. The sport has inherent risks and if anyone is so afraid of litigation then get off the field.

No one on the field? Really? You sure? The ball is dead.

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
Back to balks: In announcing the new rule allowing the pitcher to turn shoulders the NFHS Rules committee patted themselves on the back, commending themselves for providing ONE LESS WAY TO BALK. (See cover page of NFHS/RefereeMagazine Baseball Guide 2005)

That my friends still leaves 29 ways to balk in HS. What is wrong with that picture?

You don't see a problem with 29 ways to balk????

So you are ripping the FED for getting rid of a rule which you didn't like? What is wrong with this picture?

No I don't. I do have a problem with uneducated people who rant about how bad the Federation is.

[Edited by LDUB on Apr 12th, 2005 at 01:39 AM]

[jicecone]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
Don't care what Papa C or other think about the perceived deception of the gorilla stance as it has been called. It has not been specifically prohibited in many codes. My suspicions are that a player cried after being picked off the base so the NF came up with an interpretation so crying would be kept to a minimum. "There's no crying in baseball".

The bottom line is the NFHS Baseball rules committee is a bunch of people who I believe have never ever stepped onto the field of play, and if they have they were clueless as to which sport the were officiating.

I have questioned their logic in numerous situations in which they interpret the rules to require a balk call, but they never give me a rules citation to support their ruling. Instead they say "it is not included in what they can do" therefore is prohibited. But they are selective as to what is prohibited. I could give many examples but one will suffice.

Example 1: The rule says the pitcher shall take his sign with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate. It does not say he can shake his head yes or no to accept or reject the sign. But that is allowed.

If players/umpires can not grasp the balk concept, that is discern the action which REQUIRES the pitcher to deliver the ball to the plate then they have no business being on the field.

The rules committee has constantly taken the fun out of the game with ridiculous rules all under the guise of player safety. Prohibiting huddling, players on field during DEAD BALL to congratulate a home run hitter, et.al. I'm all for player safety but they are taking it way too far. The sport has inherent risks and if anyone is so afraid of litigation then get off the field.

Sorry I digressed a little.

Back to balks: In announcing the new rule allowing the pitcher to turn shoulders the NFHS Rules committee patted themselves on the back, commending themselves for providing ONE LESS WAY TO BALK. (See cover page of NFHS/RefereeMagazine Baseball Guide 2005)

That my friends still leaves 29 ways to balk in HS. What is wrong with that picture?

You don't see a problem with 29 ways to balk????

Quickly now...name them.

Actually Daryl, I beleive there is 33 now, that I have counted for HS. One being applied for players not being in fair territory at the time of the pitch.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally posted by jicecone

Actually Daryl, I beleive there is 33 now, that I have counted for HS. One being applied for players not being in fair territory at the time of the pitch.

I really did not count them up. I relied on information supplied to my state rule interpreter from the NF Rules committee that there remained 29 ways to balk. If 33 is correct it only goes to prove two things:

1. NF rules committe just as wrong about number of remaining ways to balk as they are about their interpretations of what constitutes a balk.

2. You proved my point that the complexity of just the balk rule is way too high for the skill level. Why should there be less ways to balk at the highest level of play (professional) than there is for lesser skilled high school players? I doesn't make sense to me.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long

I really did not count them up. I relied on information supplied to my state rule interpreter from the NF Rules committee that there remained 29 ways to balk. If 33 is correct it only goes to prove two things:

1. NF rules committe just as wrong about number of remaining ways to balk as they are about their interpretations of what constitutes a balk.

2. You proved my point that the complexity of just the balk rule is way too high for the skill level. Why should there be less ways to balk at the highest level of play (professional) than there is for lesser skilled high school players? I doesn't make sense to me.

I'm still balk-free after 10 games. Only 3 were HS games, but still.....

There are balks I COULD call on a regular basis, I'm sure. But there's gotta be some common sense in the application of all this. I mean, in my HS game tonight, it was 14-0 after 1 inning. When the pitcher stepped back in the windup position and made a motion associated with a pitch I could've balked it. Since I'm not the kind of guy who likes to pick the wings off of butterflies I simply had a conversation with the first base coach the next inning.

I like Wisconsin -- we get the balks we should get and leave the really picky ones to other states.