Dead ball passing runners, runs scoring

[Mike Goble]

If I distill this right, in the NFHS 8.4.2 Situation N two runs score because they were awarded home on the hit, B5 is declared out because he passed a runner, and R3 is out on appeal because he missed second.
If R3 hadn't missed second, then 3 runs would have scored with B5 being declared out for passing R3.
Does OBR differ on this? How does the force come into play in a multiple-base award situation?

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by greymule
Of course, this was long ago, so who knows what the rule was, but I believe that Lou Gehrig, with two outs and runners on 1B and 3B, hit a ball over the CF fence and somehow passed the runner from 1B between 2B and 3B. I think they counted the first run only (which makes sense).

Sounds like the "winning" play in the Haddix 12 inning perfect game. Joe Adcock hit the winiing HR in the 13th with two on, passed a runner, and only one run counted.

[greymule]

Sounds like the "winning" play in the Haddix 12 inning perfect game. Joe Adcock hit the winning HR in the 13th with two on, passed a runner, and only one run counted.

Yes. The play began with Felix Mantilla on 2B and Hank Aaron on 1B with 1 out. Joe Adcock hit a ball that just barely cleared the chain-link fence, and Aaron thought it was still in the park. When he saw Mantilla score, Aaron, after touching 2B, started toward his dugout. Adcock then passed him and was called out. Aaron, hearing his coaches screaming, then continued around the bases, so the score was originally announced as 2-0. But the league changed it the next day, ruling that Adcock's "homer" was actually a double, so only Mantilla's run counted.

If the play had occurred in, say, the sixth inning, Aaron's run would have counted.

[Edited by greymule on Feb 25th, 2005 at 11:07 AM]

[Thaal]

With an OUT for passing runners, apart from the out mechanic is there a mechanic of signaling the reason for the out.

[Delaware Blue]

Originally posted by Thaal
With an OUT for passing runners, apart from the out mechanic is there a mechanic of signaling the reason for the out.

I've never seen anything specific in a manual or taught at a clinic. The two times I've called it, I've pointed at the runner, given the out signal, and verbalized "Number 'X' is out for passing a preceding runner." Seemed to work fairly well.

[bob jenkins]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Delaware Blue

Originally posted by bob jenkins

I agree. There is a difference between being put out and declared out. In either case (the base on balls cited in the rule or the home run in the original post), the runner or BR reaches the awarded base and touches it prior to either being put out or declared out beyond that base. In both cases, the runner and batter-runner touched the base necessary to "force" the preceding runner to score. For the intent of the rule, I do not believe there is a distinction. But there may be. I haven't found a professional interpretation that would contradict the application of 7.04(b) during the dead ball situation as originally posted. If there is, I'd be interested in reading it since I'm always willing to learn.

Try this, from NAPBL:

3.14 PASSING A PRECEDING RUNNER:

Any runner is out when he passes a preceding runner before such runner is out.

Play: Bases loaded, two out. Batter hits home run out of ball park but passes runner on first before runner on third reaches the plate. All runners continue around the bases and touch home.

Ruling: No runs score; this is a time play. [Note clarification to Official Rule 4.11© Approved Ruling.]

[greymule]

Play: Bases loaded, two out. Batter hits home run out of ball park but passes runner on first before runner on third reaches the plate. All runners continue around the bases and touch home.

Ruling: No runs score; this is a time play. [Note clarification to Official Rule 4.11© Approved Ruling.]

Very interesting. The key is put out versus declared out.

So in the well-known "2 out, bases loaded, batter gets a walk" play where the BR takes a turn around 1B and is tagged out before the run scores, the runner on 3B is still "forced" home and his run counts. It is not a time play. But if the BR takes a turn around 1B and somehow passes the runner originally on 1B, the run scores only if it crossed the plate before the out.

Tagged out, run forced home, not a time play.

Declared out, time play.

(Right?)

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by greymule

Very interesting. The key is put out versus declared out.

Someone should have said that way back on February 13.

[Delaware Blue]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Someone should have said that way back on February 13.

I think you did... Thanks for the NAPBL reference.