NFHS interpretation

[DG]

Originally posted by David Emerling

Well, according to your list of occurrences that can result in umpire consultation and correction, this would be ONE of them.

Apparently, if there is no question that a batted ball has not left the park and "Foul!" is called, no matter how outrageously incorrect - such a ruling must stand - even if everybody in the park realizes it is was fair - even the umpire who made the ruling.

On the other hand, if the ball has clearly left the park, and has been outrageously ruled "Foul!", it can be changed.

Is that where we are?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN [/B]

No, this is not where we are. The PBUC is OBR. FED ruling would be that a verbal FOUL can not be changed, no matter how bad the call is.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by DG

No, this is not where we are. The PBUC is OBR. FED ruling would be that a verbal FOUL can not be changed, no matter how bad the call is. [/B]

You're right. I didn't notice that your list was a PBUC list.

Well, at least FED is consistent on this one - no matter how illogical.

FED 10-2-3l says: Umpire-in-chief duties - Rectify any situation in which an umpire's decision that was reversed has placed either team at a disadvantage.

Why not say no decisions can be reversed? Some can? Which ones? Where are those listed in the FED rulebook/casebook?

If such a list is soley the product of an interpretation, then there is no point in citing any rule when one of these interpretations are invoked. The essence of most interpretations is a tacit acknowledgement that either 1) there is no rule that directly addresses a certain situation, or 2) the applicable rule is too vague, or 3) the applicable rule is too specific and does not encompass alternate/similar variations along the same theme.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by David Emerling

You're right. I didn't notice that your list was a PBUC list.

Well, at least FED is consistent on this one - no matter how illogical.

FED 10-2-3l says: Umpire-in-chief duties - Rectify any situation in which an umpire's decision that was reversed has placed either team at a disadvantage.

Why not say no decisions can be reversed? Some can? Which ones? Where are those listed in the FED rulebook/casebook?

If such a list is soley the product of an interpretation, then there is no point in citing any rule when one of these interpretations are invoked. The essence of most interpretations is a tacit acknowledgement that either 1) there is no rule that directly addresses a certain situation, or 2) the applicable rule is too vague, or 3) the applicable rule is too specific and does not encompass alternate/similar variations along the same theme.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN [/B]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

David: I have an even stranger play, one given by Kyle McNeeley of the NFHS rules committee at the TASO state meeting.

B1 pops up in foul territory behind first base. The umpire calls "Foul ball." F3 catches the pop-up. And the answer is:

It's just a dead ball, and the batter stays at bat!

That's completely inconsistent with last year's interp #14:

SITUATION 14: With R1 on first and one out, B2 hits a fly ball down the third-base line. U1 errs and announces “Foul ball,” but F5 catches the ball several feet in fair territory. RULING: B2 is out. R1 may tag and advance at his own risk. (Rule 5-1-1h does not apply on a caught fly ball.)

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by David Emerling

FED 10-2-3l says: Umpire-in-chief duties - Rectify any situation in which an umpire's decision that was reversed has placed either team at a disadvantage.

That rule has been in the book for ... a long time. Until last year, it even applied to the mistaken "foul" call.

FED decided that the rule should not apply to the mistaken "foul" call and changed rule 5-1-1h to reflect that. It's now much more in line with the NCAA and OBR interps.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

That's completely inconsistent with last year's interp #14:

SITUATION 14: With R1 on first and one out, B2 hits a fly ball down the third-base line. U1 errs and announces “Foul ball,” but F5 catches the ball several feet in fair territory. RULING: B2 is out. R1 may tag and advance at his own risk. (Rule 5-1-1h does not apply on a caught fly ball.)

And your point is? (grin)

There is one difference between McNeely's play this year and his interpretation last year: #14 featured a FAIR ball, and this year's play is about a FOUL ball. (another grin)

I don't make 'em up; I just report 'em.

And after Kyle announced the new interpretation, I spent a few minutes looking for my upper plate.

On the other hand, diligent enforcement of that rule will correct some very bad mechanics' habits.

[JJ]

Carl and DG have made the point that needs to be made - use of good mechanics is the only way to minimize (unfortunately, we won't eliminate)the problems that will arise. This rule is much like other "bad" rules we have endured over the years. Some officials say, "I don't like that rule and I won't enforce it", but what we all should be saying is, "If we enforce it as written and it causes problems it will be changed." If we don't enforce these types of changes as written, the NFHS will not know of the problems proper enforcement will lead to.

How about the interp that now the pitcher, from the stretch position, before bringing his hands together, may turn his shoulders to check a runner at first base - and he may do it "quickly and abruptly"! We used to call that "feinting", but now it's perfectly legal. I have visions of a pitcher "quickly and abruptly" turning those shoulders, the runner diving back to first, and the pitcher then calmly delivering the pitch while the runner is spitting dirt out of his teeth.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by JJ
How about the interp that now the pitcher, from the stretch position, before bringing his hands together, may turn his shoulders to check a runner at first base - and he may do it "quickly and abruptly"! We used to call that "feinting", but now it's perfectly legal. I have visions of a pitcher "quickly and abruptly" turning those shoulders, the runner diving back to first, and the pitcher then calmly delivering the pitch while the runner is spitting dirt out of his teeth.

John, I don't believe many players will be "spitting dirt".

Most of these players have utilized this same rule during the summer months, for leagues using OBR or similar rules. I for one am glad to see Fed finally come around.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by jicecone

John, I don't believe many players will be "spitting dirt".

Most of these players have utilized this same rule during the summer months, for leagues using OBR or similar rules. I for one am glad to see Fed finally come around.

I don't understand. "Most of these players have utilized this same rule [quick move is ok?] for leagues using OBR or similar rules [it's a balk in OBR and NCAA]. I told my association last Wednesday the same thing John did: quick move, runner dives back, pitcher delivers while (my words) "he's brushing off the dirt."

[Edited by Carl Childress on Jan 24th, 2005 at 02:41 PM]

[JJ]

QUOTE]

John, I don't believe many players will be "spitting dirt".

Most of these players have utilized this same rule during the summer months, for leagues using OBR or similar rules. I for one am glad to see Fed finally come around. [/B][/QUOTE]

This has ALWAYS been a balk in OBR. It's deception. High School games will be fun this year!

[jicecone]

Originally posted by JJ
QUOTE]

John, I don't believe many players will be "spitting dirt".

Most of these players have utilized this same rule during the summer months, for leagues using OBR or similar rules. I for one am glad to see Fed finally come around.

This has ALWAYS been a balk in OBR. It's deception. High School games will be fun this year! [/B][/QUOTE]

Am I missing something here? Before coming set, the pitcher is not allowed to turn his shoulders toward first quickly or otherwise.?

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by jicecone

This has ALWAYS been a balk in OBR. It's deception. High School games will be fun this year!

Am I missing something here? Before coming set, the pitcher is not allowed to turn his shoulders toward first quickly or otherwise.? [/B][/QUOTE]The pitcher is not allowed to feint to first. A quick movement of the shoulders, before coming to the discernible stop, is a feint and hence a balk. A slow turning before the stop is nothing since it cannot deceive the runner.

A turn of the shoulder, slow or fast, after coming to the pause is a balk everywhere.

[Tim C]

jicecone:

I think perhaps there is a little disconnect in your view:

I'm guessing here,

R1 and F1 not in contact with the pitcher's plate . . . any type turn is OK, afterall he is an infielder at this time.

R1 and F1 is legally engaged with the pitcher's plate. Set position has not been done, yet. Slow turn of shoulders to look over: OK in FED, NCAA and OBR. Quick turn to look, Balk in NCAA/OBR but OK in FED.

R1 and F1 not only in legal engagement but has also gone to the set position. Quick look, balk in all rules books.

Each of these situations R/H F1's shoulder "opens" to first base.

FED appears to have made more than just a huge change in the rule but have taken it too far.

Tee

[jicecone]

Originally posted by Tim C
jicecone:

I think perhaps there is a little disconnect in your view:

I'm guessing here,

R1 and F1 not in contact with the pitcher's plate . . . any type turn is OK, afterall he is an infielder at this time.

R1 and F1 is legally engaged with the pitcher's plate. Set position has not been done, yet. Slow turn of shoulders to look over: OK in FED, NCAA and OBR. Quick turn to look, Balk in NCAA/OBR but OK in FED.

R1 and F1 not only in legal engagement but has also gone to the set position. Quick look, balk in all rules books.

Each of these situations R/H F1's shoulder "opens" to first base.



Tee

I agree 100% with that Tee.

Mabey its the cold up here in the NE that has the brain on freeze or mabey I just don't recall seen that move used over the years.????

Old dogs still learn too.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Carl Childress
[David: I have an even stranger play, one given by Kyle McNeeley of the NFHS rules committee at the TASO state meeting.

B1 pops up in foul territory behind first base. The umpire calls "Foul ball." F3 catches the pop-up. And the answer is:

It's just a dead ball, and the batter stays at bat!

Kyle just left out the part about ejecting the head coach, two assistants and the scorekeeper.