Force Play?

[mbyron]

Originally posted by JJ
Hmmmm...again. If I see a runner pass another runner, I call him out immediately. I don't wait to see if whatever ball he hit is caught or not.

Wouldn't it matter which happened first? If the batted ball is caught first, then obviously BR is out and R1 must retouch. If BR passes R1 before the batted ball is caught, then BR is out immediately, the force is removed on R1, and R1 need not retouch. Or do we want to say that the catch by the outfielder on a BR who is already out nonetheless forces R1 to retouch, on the grounds that the ball was not safely hit?

I'm trying to think of another situation where BR can be out due to an infraction on his part before the defense can put him out. Interference is not a good example to use as a parallel, because the penalty for interference usually dictates that runners return.

[DG]

B][/QUOTE]

Wouldn't it matter which happened first? If the batted ball is caught first, then obviously BR is out and R1 must retouch. If BR passes R1 before the batted ball is caught, then BR is out immediately, the force is removed on R1, and R1 need not retouch. Or do we want to say that the catch by the outfielder on a BR who is already out nonetheless forces R1 to retouch, on the grounds that the ball was not safely hit?

[/B][/QUOTE]
All runners must retouch after a fly ball is caught - 7.10(a). This has nothing to do with BR passing R1, force plays, or any other situation.

[nine01c]

Let's make this really simple and call it a double play.
BR is out twice. R1's retouch can be optional (if less than three outs).

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by mbyron
If BR passes R1 before the batted ball is caught, then BR is out immediately, the force is removed on R1, and R1 need not retouch.

The error you are making is believing that a runner's requirement to retouch on a caught fly ball is a "force play." It is not; it is an appeal play. The retouch requirement is related to the catch itself, not the batter's status at the time of the catch.

This situation (batter out for passing before batted fly ball is caught) is the one time in a thousand that the catch and the batter's putout are NOT related to each other, and (as far as I know) there is an absence of discussion of this situation in the authoritative literature. Nevertheless, there is nothing in the rules that would remove the runner's obligation to tag up because the batter is out for passing when his fly ball is caught; as mentioned previously, a caught fly ball never creates a force play.

[nine01c]

Thank you Dave.

[greymule]

ASA softball has an unusual rule under which the batter can be out but the runners still forced.

If the batter hits a ground ball and then deliberately removes her helmet, she is immediately called out, but runners are still forced. So even with the BR out, a runner on 1B must cannot retreat to 1B but must continue to 2B.

(I don't like the rule.)