Mendoza Balk?

[ump3]

I was just looking for comments on why that was a balk? He did legally step off. Can't he throw anywhere? Perhaps they got him for making a motion natuarlly associated with his pitch.

[Edited by ump3 on Oct 16th, 2004 at 09:44 PM]

[Peruvian]

That's the only thing I could gather from it.

[Kaliix]

OBR 8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when-
(g)The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher's plate.

Mendoza had a total vapor lock. He legally stepped off and then made his pitching motion and actually threw the ball to home plate. That is as clear a balk as a balk can be.

I was more irritated that Terry Francona was actually out there arguing the call with the umpires. That was a total no brainer balk and Francona demonstrated that he clearly had no clue about the rule. Geez....

[ump3]

I don't really think that it is as clear as clear can be. Certainly, if the runner were breaking home, and the pitcher made the same motion, you wouldn't balk him. He would be a fielder throwing home. JMO

[Peruvian]

I didn't see the play, but that's all I could think of regarding what they were saying.

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by ump3
I don't really think that it is as clear as clear can be. Certainly, if the runner were breaking home, and the pitcher made the same motion, you wouldn't balk him. He would be a fielder throwing home. JMO

I'm not sure. At least when the pitcher is in contact, it has to be an actual steal attempt, not just a fake.

MLBUM:

7.7 THROWING TO AN UNOCCUPIED BASE
Official Baseball Rule 8.05(d) provides that the pitcher be charged with a balk if, while in contact with the pitcher's plate, he throws to an unoccupied base except for the purpose of making a play.

EXAMPLES:

(1) Runners on first and second, pitcher in set position. Runner breaks for third base and pitcher throws to third base.
Ruling: Legal play.

(2) Runners on first and second, pitcher in set position. Runner bluffs going to third base and pitcher throws to third base. However, runner did not go. Ruling: Balk, pursuant to Official Baseball Rule 8.05(d).

[Edited by Rich Ives on Oct 17th, 2004 at 12:52 PM]

[Gee]

"SNIP"

"2) Runners on first and second, pitcher in set position. Runner bluffs going to third base and pitcher throws to third base. However, runner did not go. Ruling: Balk, pursuant to Official Baseball Rule 8.05(d)."
--------------------------------------------------------
Rich,

I've always had problems with that rule and I don't think 'bluffs' or "fakes" have ever been interpreted.

Sitch.

R2, LHP in set.

F1 looks to second out of the corner of his eye, remember, no shoulder turn when set. R2 disappears on his way to third. F1 spins counterclockwise steps and throws to
third.

The runner has stopped his advance and is now returning to third. It is a clear violation of 8.05(d) or is it?

I have nothing. It all depends on the timing. G.

[Dave Davies]

 8.01 There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Position and the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time. Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher
while standing on the rubber.
(e) If the pitcher removes his pivot foot from contact with the pitcher's plate by stepping backward with that foot, he thereby becomes an infielder and if he makes a wild throw
from that position, it shall be considered the same as a wild throw by any other infielder.

Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: The pitcher, while off the rubber, may throw to any base. If he makes a wild throw, such throw is the throw of an infielder and what follows is governed by the rules covering a ball thrown by a fielder.

This rule is quite specific. The Umpire ruling in last nights game is Protestable.

The vague rules in the Balk section never refer to the pitcher legally stepping off the rubber and THEN delivering a Pitch. Once he steps off the rubber, it CAN'T be a pitch.

Dave
******

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by Gee
"SNIP"

"2) Runners on first and second, pitcher in set position. Runner bluffs going to third base and pitcher throws to third base. However, runner did not go. Ruling: Balk, pursuant to Official Baseball Rule 8.05(d)."
--------------------------------------------------------
Rich,

I've always had problems with that rule and I don't think 'bluffs' or "fakes" have ever been interpreted.

Most people know a fake when they see one. Take a few steps and stop.

[Kaliix]

Dave,
Once the pitcher steps the rubber, there can be no pitch. There can however, still be a balk.

If you saw the play, Mendoza came set, legally disengaged the rubber, but never separated his hands. Immediately after disengaging, he threw to home in the same motion that he would if he was pitching. That violates OBR 8.05, which states, "If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when- (g)The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher's plate."

It was a balk specifically because he was not in contact and used a motion obviously associated with a pitch (J/R Manual p.143 #14).

Whether it is protestable or not is questionable, but I would think that it is the umpires judgement as to whether or not he used a motion normally associated with a pitch and I don't believe that is protestable.

Originally posted by Dave Davies
 8.01 There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Position and the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time. Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher
while standing on the rubber.
(e) If the pitcher removes his pivot foot from contact with the pitcher's plate by stepping backward with that foot, he thereby becomes an infielder and if he makes a wild throw
from that position, it shall be considered the same as a wild throw by any other infielder.

Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: The pitcher, while off the rubber, may throw to any base. If he makes a wild throw, such throw is the throw of an infielder and what follows is governed by the rules covering a ball thrown by a fielder.

This rule is quite specific. The Umpire ruling in last nights game is Protestable.

The vague rules in the Balk section never refer to the pitcher legally stepping off the rubber and THEN delivering a Pitch. Once he steps off the rubber, it CAN'T be a pitch.

Dave
******

[Dave Davies]

"Take a few steps and stop". I am unfamiliar with that phrase.

I have the same manuals that you do and I'm sure we've read every passage pertinent to last Evenings play.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. If that happened to me, I would certainly have been Surprised and probably would have balked him.

Tha balk rule, however, is vague as to when the pitch is delivered. I take it to mean that the pitcher was never on the rubber in the first place. There is no mention of the pitcher stepping back off the rubber and THEN pitching.

That's why I brought up 8.01e.

The OBR, JEA & Roder are vague on this. The MLB Manual and the PBUC manual don't even mention it. I would certainly like Childress to comment on this.

I am going to present this play at our next meeting. I will give them both sides of thought and let them decide how to handle it. A lot of beer has been won and lost over interpretations such as this.

Dave
******

[Rich Ives]

"Take a few steps and stop". I am unfamiliar with that phrase.


I dodn't say it was in a book. Gee wanted to know how one knows if it's a fake or not. To me it is quite obvious.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Dave Davies
 8.01 There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Position and the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time. Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher
while standing on the rubber.
(e) If the pitcher removes his pivot foot from contact with the pitcher's plate by stepping backward with that foot, he thereby becomes an infielder and if he makes a wild throw
from that position, it shall be considered the same as a wild throw by any other infielder.

Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: The pitcher, while off the rubber, may throw to any base. If he makes a wild throw, such throw is the throw of an infielder and what follows is governed by the rules covering a ball thrown by a fielder.

This rule is quite specific. The Umpire ruling in last nights game is Protestable.

The vague rules in the Balk section never refer to the pitcher legally stepping off the rubber and THEN delivering a Pitch. Once he steps off the rubber, it CAN'T be a pitch.

Dave
******

What you have quoted has nothing to do with this balk situation. It has to do with throws that enter dead ball territory.

The balk call is not protestable. The balk could have been called for violation of rule 8.05 (d) "The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;" or for violation of rule 8.05 (g) "The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher's plate." It could also be called an balk under 2.00 becuase F1 delivered the ball to the batter while not in contact with the plate.

[Edited by LDUB on Oct 17th, 2004 at 10:45 PM]

[ump3]

First, the judgement of the balk may not be protestable, but the explanation of such is because that is the application of the rule. 8.05 (d) cannot be used. He was not in contact with the plate. The other could be enforced, but the one you missed, and what they called was an illegal pitch. An illegal pitch with runners on base is a balk. He delivered a pitch while not in contact with his pitcher's plate. I personally do not believe this is a correct interpretation of that rule, but it is what they used. I believe that it is either a motion natuarally associatede with his pitch while not in contact with the plate, or simply a FIELDER throwing to a base.

[Edited by ump3 on Oct 17th, 2004 at 11:55 PM]

[Dave Davies]

Wow,

This is really not that big a deal. I am referring to 8.01e, that's all.

He legally stepped back off the rubber. Do we at least agree on that?

If we do agree, then his next move, by rule, is a throw, not a pitch.

I DO understand your take on the play and I understand your interpretation. I also agree that the call was probably correct.

Just tell me why 8.01e doesn't supercede any balk rule. After all, didn't his legal dismount from the rubber occur first?

If I take this stance at my next meeting, I think I'm gonna be buying a couple of Pitchers.

Dave
******