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Wed Sep 22, 2004, 05:50pm
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I think we all agree that we are not coaches. However do you consider the following coaching:
1. The catcher pulls pitches into the strike zone rather than framing. If you say hold the pitch where its caught and trust me. If you pull it you must think its a ball and thats what I will call. 2. The pitcher is either consistently high or low. If you say to the catcher (only you and the catcher know what was said) give him a higher or lower target in hopes of getting more strikes? 3. If the catcher sets up to deep and you tell him to get closer to the plate. 4. The pitcher for example is pushing the envelope in coming to a stop. Not balking. You tell the catcher (again only you and he are heard) tell your pitcher to come to a stop. 5.When does preventive officiating become coaching? 
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Wed Sep 22, 2004, 06:36pm
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2 - Coaching - don't go there. Besids, it's a mechanical problem with the pitcher, not the target. 3 - Coaching - but you can force him closer by positioning yourself so he has to be closer. Just make sure you don't force a catcher's interference by doing do. 4 - Coaching. He's not breaking a rule so what's your point? 5 - When you do it for only one of the teams. Team A's mistake is a benefit to Team B. Don't get in the middle.
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Rich Ives Different does not equate to wrong
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Wed Sep 22, 2004, 06:39pm
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1. If I have a catcher jerking the mitt up into the zone, I say, "Hey catch, when you pull that glove up, your telling me its a ball, and your trying to get the pitch. Leave your glove there, if its a strike, Ill give it to ya." Next pitch or so, he does this, I call a strike, and say, "there ya go." I dont tell him to stop, that would be the coaching part. If he keeps doing it, he's hurting his pitcher. Lower levels, I sometimes relay it to the coach. Dont see it too much at HS. If I do, that comment stops it real quick.
2. Dont tell him higher or lower, to me, that would be coaching or infringing on their strategy. 3. Sets too deep? Usually I can adjust, as if the the catcher does set up too deep, its not enough to have an effect. But if Im not getting a good look at the plate. Ill tell catch,..."Hey catch, you might be costing your pitcher some strikes, give me a better look." And thats it. He will know what I'm talking about. 4. The balk thing? Take care of it early. Use catch to tell pitch, that "you need more of a stop" Or "I need to see a little more stop." Again, thats most beneficial for the younger ages. When doing HS, I MIGHT say something if its borderline. If Im on the bases, its easier to give pitch a quick heads-up. But if its blatant, balk him. That will stop it quick. 5. It becomes coaching when you "coach".Generic comments not offering advice one way or another is preventive, Giving specific directions would be coaching.
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Wed Sep 22, 2004, 08:32pm
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1. The catcher pulls pitches into the strike zone rather than framing. If you say hold the pitch where its caught and trust me. If you pull it you must think its a ball and thats what I will call.
2. The pitcher is either consistently high or low. If you say to the catcher (only you and the catcher know what was said) give him a higher or lower target in hopes of getting more strikes? 3. If the catcher sets up to deep and you tell him to get closer to the plate. 4. The pitcher for example is pushing the envelope in coming to a stop. Not balking. You tell the catcher (again only you and he are heard) tell your pitcher to come to a stop. 5.When does preventive officiating become coaching? 1. Nope, just keep calling pulled pitches balls. Either the catcher learns or he doesn't. On the field, I'm an umpire, not a teacher. 2. Nope, that's coaching. If the catcher asks me, "was that high?", of course I will give him an answer. But it's up to him to ask the question, not for me to volunteer an answer. 3. No, again, not my job. But if I am getting forced out of position (in which case he must be REAL deep), the next time he gets up for any reason, I move forward and don't move when he comes back. 4. If I am working a youth league, say 13 year olds, where the kids are just learning the set position, I MIGHT say something. Anything beyond 13 year olds, and again, either it's a balk or it's not. Call it or leave it alone. 5. I'm not sure what you mean by preventive officiating. You may think these things are preventive officiating, I think the cross the border to coaching. But you may have other examples that are not. These things pertain to the level of ball I normally call (16 yr olds and up). As I said, if I am doing 13 year olds just learning the set position, or if it is a very relaxed, recreational teaching league (i.e., some Fall Ball leagues), then the situation is different, in that case I AM part teacher. But if they are playing "for real", with standings and scores and all of the other trappings of competition, then my job is to officiate, not coach.
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Wed Sep 22, 2004, 10:38pm
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Thu Sep 23, 2004, 03:48pm
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I coached for 14 years and see ALOT of incompetent coaching. It is very difficult not to say something, but you are asking for trouble if you do. Even if no one complains, you are giving an unfair advantage to one of the teams.
Sure, I have dusted off the plate and asked catcher to tell pitcher to make sure he stops, but only in JV games. Even though some coaches in the smaller schools in this area have no clue, as Atlanta says we are not teachers.
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Thu Sep 23, 2004, 10:38pm
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__________________
GB
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Fri Sep 24, 2004, 10:13am
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Hey guys thanks for the feedback. How many of you "expand the strike zone" and I'm not referring to obvious balls. I'm referring to pitches that you might normally call balls but look good enough to call strikes so you don't get in trouble. When:
1. A team is hopelessly behind and it would take divine intervention to come back and it's in the interest of all concerned to get this game over with. 2. You have a pitcher who has walked 5 guys in a row. The kids are coming up and not swinging the bats and now you want them to start hacking. I think we all agree when the batters are swing we have a better game. Do you sometimes call a strike to get them going? If you do this how does this differ from say getting the catcher to move up so that the breaking ball at the knees doesn't hit the dirt because the catcher is too deep (And if you call that breaking ball in the dirt a strike even though replays show your correct your'e in for a long day) or you get the catcher to properly frame so that one can call that pitch on the black a strike? If you do #1 and #2 are you not giving a team an unfair advantage? I'm not trying to cause trouble but I think as an umpire you have to develope a philosophy that works for you in terms of game management. Are you a by the book guy? If you're a by the book guy do you call the balk when the pitcher takes the sign straddling the rubber? When a righty checks the runner and he moves his shoulder ever so slightly so that no advantage is gained do you balk him? When the manager says step off and the whole world knows the pitcher is stepping off so there is no advantage and he steps off with the wrong foot do you balk him? On the double play on the throw to second and the fielder misses the base by a few inches do you call the runner safe? The easiest thing is to be by the book guy. It's the ultimate security blanket.
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Fri Sep 24, 2004, 03:13pm
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I can count on two hands the number of times I've altered my strike zone intentionally between innings - and in every case I spoke with both coaches beforehand. If the true strike zone is not achievable by either team, and both coaches agree ( I suggest they tell their hitters as well), I've expanded the zone so that we have at least the occasional hitter swing the bat.
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Fri Sep 24, 2004, 04:23pm
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For 2. Again, you aren't the coaches. Pulling or leaving a pitcher is a coaching call. Looking for a walk is a coaching call. Don't become one. You must be a FED guy. In OBR "when the pitcher takes the sign straddling the rubber" is NOT a balk. "When a righty checks the runner and he moves his shoulder ever so slightly so that no advantage is gained do you balk him? " is generally not a balk in OBR. It would only be a balk if it looked like a feint to first. "When the manager says step off and the whole world knows the pitcher is stepping off so there is no advantage and he steps off with the wrong foot do you balk him?" This has been a debate - the "technical balk" vs. practical application. "On the double play on the throw to second and the fielder misses the base by a few inches do you call the runner safe?" In LL because of the field size, proximity of the coaches/fans, and the player's lack of experience - yes. In "shaving player" ball, a very few inches is an out but a gross miss is a safe.
__________________
Rich Ives Different does not equate to wrong
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Fri Sep 24, 2004, 04:36pm
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Originally posted by gordon30307
Hey guys thanks for the feedback. How many of you "expand the strike zone" and I'm not referring to obvious balls. I'm referring to pitches that you might normally call balls but look good enough to call strikes so you don't get in trouble. When: 1. A team is hopelessly behind and it would take divine intervention to come back and it's in the interest of all concerned to get this game over with. Why expand it? Mine would be plenty expanded to start the game. If they can't throw a strike - tough. Must not be a pitcher and thank God for time limits. 2. You have a pitcher who has walked 5 guys in a row. The kids are coming up and not swinging the bats and now you want them to start hacking. I think we all agree when the batters are swing we have a better game. Do you sometimes call a strike to get them going? same answer as #1. the kids will be swinging the bats because in inning 1 I was calling every inch of the zone a strike as it should be. If you do this how does this differ from say getting the catcher to move up so that the breaking ball at the knees doesn't hit the dirt because the catcher is too deep (And if you call that breaking ball in the dirt a strike even though replays show your correct your'e in for a long day) or you get the catcher to properly frame so that one can call that pitch on the black a strike? you must be talking small ball (LL etc). Yeah I'll tell em to move up if its a local league. If its a tourney etc., that's not my concern. If you do #1 and #2 are you not giving a team an unfair advantage? that's why you don't do #1 or #2 (sounds like going to the water closet) Call the game, let em play, and the chips my fall where they may etc.,. I'm not trying to cause trouble but I think as an umpire you have to develope a philosophy that works for you in terms of game management. Are you a by the book guy? If you're a by the book guy do you call the balk when the pitcher takes the sign straddling the rubber? should not matter, if someone complains tell him to get on the rubber When a righty checks the runner and he moves his shoulder ever so slightly so that no advantage is gained do you balk him? only if he balks. This is umpires judgement of course. I call a lot of balks, but I don't go looking for balks. When the manager says step off and the whole world knows the pitcher is stepping off so there is no advantage and he steps off with the wrong foot do you balk him? nope On the double play on the throw to second and the fielder misses the base by a few inches do you call the runner safe? nope call it expected or whatever, but its got to be an obvious miss. The easiest thing is to be by the book guy. It's the ultimate security blanket. and the easiest way to get yourself in a lot of trouble. There are lots of things in baseball umpiring that have to be common sense. Call the things that matter. Most of the umpires that I know who are "book" umpires stay in trouble because they call things that "no one else" does. Thanks David
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Fri Sep 24, 2004, 05:16pm
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Hi Rich,
1. C'mon Rich you know what I mean by hopelessly behind. A team facing a deficit way in excess of the 10 run slaughter rule and is hopelessly mismatched. No good ever comes from a game like that. There comes a point where there is no point. Get the game over with. 2. Walks are a coaching call if you are facing a deficit and need runners, however, what sometimes happens players will just keep their bats on the shoulder and nothing happens. Get the kids swinging the bat. Ball is put in play kids are learning how to play. Makes for a better game and gets them ready for the next level. 3. Never ever discuss the strike zone. After a couple of innings they'll figure it out. As soon as you deviate from it that's when you have problems. You sound like a "by the book guy". I can respect that but I think there is a place for enforcing the "spirit" of the rule as opposed to a strict interpretation. Have a good week end.
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Sat Sep 25, 2004, 06:48pm
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Got news for you. I've LOST games where we had a ten run lead with two outs in the last inning.
The Phillies once had a 9-run bottom of the ninth to beat the Dodgers. Here's a line score from the 2003 LLWS Team .......................................1.2.3.4.5.6 .7..R..H.E US Southwest-Lamar National.....0.2.0.1.1.6.3.13.13.2 US New England-Saugus Amer...2.2.6.0.0.0.4.14.12.4 Relatively HUGE comebacks have been made at all levels. Don't interject yourself.
__________________
Rich Ives Different does not equate to wrong
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