Appeal/Balk Called (OBR)

[teacherspit]

If I read everything correct it is not a balk.
When the pitcher stepped off the back of the rubber he becomes a fielder. The balk is no longer an option.

I would ration that the pitcher was stepping off the rubber, especially after at least one runner was on base, and throw to an unoccupied base after an offensive play, that the defensive team was making an appeal.
Now if I am not sure I would asked the pitcher what he was doing.
If he is unable and not willing to tell me then I would declare a dead ball and call a ball on the batter. Or I would not allow the appear. Illegal appear.

But under no circumstances would I ever call a balk unless it qualified by the parameters set in the rules of pitching.
If the pitcher had just wheeled and throw back to second without first stepping back off the rubber, then indeed that is a balk because the PITCHER is throwing to an unoccupied base.

If the pitcher had come to a set position and threw to third without stepping back off the rubber, then that is an attempt to pick off the runner. Under no circumstances can a pitcher as a pitcher ever throw to a base to make an appeal.

He must first put the ball in play by toeing the rubber with ball in hand and batter in the box. Them step off the rubber to become a fielder.
Then he can throw to any base he wants to for an appeal. If they miss the thrown ball then the appeal for that base for a certain runner can not be reappealed.
The ball is still alive and the runners may advance at their own risk.

If a pitcher balks when making an appeal, such act shall be a play. An appeal should be clearly intended as an appeal, either by a verbal request by the player or an act that unmistakably indicates an appeal to the umpire. A player, inadvertently stepping on the base with a ball in his hand, would not constitute an appeal. Time is not out when an appeal is being made.

[Edited by teacherspit on Jul 20th, 2004 at 03:20 AM]

[GarthB]

Originally posted by woolnojg
OK, OK.
Your example ahs him imitating a pitcher, which causes the balk.

Apparently you neither read my post fully or the rule. He is not "imitating" a pitcher. By the rule he IS the pitcher, even off the rubber, and he is doing something against the balk rules.

My point: You have to be careful about making a universal statement that a pitcher is a fielder when he is off the rubber. Sometimes he is treated LIKE a fielder...for base awards, for example. There are other rules under section 8.05 that allow him to behave similarly to a fielder if he properly disengages, but still, by rule, he is referred to as a pitcher.

[GarthB]

"When the pitcher stepped off the back of the rubber he becomes a fielder."

No, he is still a pitcher. He is just allowed to do things off the rubber that he is not allowed to do on the rubber.

[teacherspit]

GB,
When the pitcher steps off the back of the rubber. He is not under the penalty of balking. Unless he throws the ball to a fielder. Then without the ball strides the rubber or toes the rubber. Then he has balked.

Did you not understand what I was saying about a pitcher wheeling and throwing to an unoccupied base being a balk. Or throwing to an occupied base with intention of appealing without first stepping off the back of the rubber. It cannot be interpeted other than a pickoff play. Because is the only time a pitcher can throw to an occupied base while touching the rubber.
That is clear and simple.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by teacherspit
GB,
When the pitcher steps off the back of the rubber. He is not under the penalty of balking. Unless he throws the ball to a fielder. Then without the ball strides the rubber or toes the rubber. Then he has balked.

How about if he simulates a pitch while not being in contact with the rubber? Is that still a balk or was that removed from the rule book in the last couple of days?

Did you not understand what I was saying about a pitcher wheeling and throwing to an unoccupied base being a balk. Or throwing to an occupied base with intention of appealing without first stepping off the back of the rubber. It cannot be interpeted other than a pickoff play. Because is the only time a pitcher can throw to an occupied base while touching the rubber.
That is clear and simple.

I'm sorry if you didn't understand my post. I was simply saying that one should be careful about making a universal statement that a pitcher "becomes" a fielder when he is not on the rubber. There are many situations to prove this untrue.

[Atl Blue]

A PITCHER does NOT have to disengage the rubber to make a legal appeal! Where in the world did THAT come from? It is perfectly legal for a pitcher to step directly to and throw to a base while still in contact with the rubber.

The reason pitchers step off is that there is MUCH more chance of balking if he does not step off first. But it is NOT required. Once the ball is live, he can step right to the base and throw without disengaging first.

And a throw to 2B for the purpose of an appeal IS making a play, a specific exception mentioned in the rules which would allow the pitcher to throw to an unoccupied base.

In the original scenario, this was a terrible call. It was legal if he disengaged first, and as long as he turned, stepped and threw without doing anything with his hands to commit to a pitch, it was legal if he did not disengage first.

More rule book umps that know what the rule says and have NO idea of how to apply it on the field!

[Lapopez]

Originally posted by Atl Blue
A PITCHER does NOT have to disengage the rubber to make a legal appeal! Where in the world did THAT come from? It is perfectly legal for a pitcher to step directly to and throw to a base while still in contact with the rubber.

And a throw to 2B for the purpose of an appeal IS making a play, a specific exception mentioned in the rules which would allow the pitcher to throw to an unoccupied base.

I was glad to read your first comment above. It was bothering me since I first read that claim.

Your second comment is now bothering me though. You emphasize that the throw for the purpose of an appeal is a "play." It what way do you mean this in light of the language used in 7.10, "An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play."?

[Rich]

Originally posted by teacherspit
GB,
When the pitcher steps off the back of the rubber. He is not under the penalty of balking. Unless he throws the ball to a fielder. Then without the ball strides the rubber or toes the rubber. Then he has balked.

Did you not understand what I was saying about a pitcher wheeling and throwing to an unoccupied base being a balk. Or throwing to an occupied base with intention of appealing without first stepping off the back of the rubber. It cannot be interpeted other than a pickoff play. Because is the only time a pitcher can throw to an occupied base while touching the rubber.
That is clear and simple.

No, you are just horribly misguided.

You can ALWAYS appeal from the rubber - you do not have to disengage, regardless if the base is occupied or unoccupied. You NEVER have to verbalize an appeal attempt - it only has to be an unmistakable act in the judgment of the umpire.

Also, you cannot do "anything" after disengaging.

PLAY: R3, F1 in the windup position. F1 disengages with his pivot foot, then in the same motion raises his arms above his head and makes it look like he's going to deliver to the plate. In the middle of this, he stops, wheels to third and picks off R3.

RULING: Balk. F1 made a motion associated with a pitch.

Disengaging makes the pitcher a fielder for the purpose of awarding bases if a ball is thrown to DBT. But there are still balks that can happen even with the pitcher disengaged.

[Atl Blue]

Your second comment is now bothering me though. You emphasize that the throw for the purpose of an appeal is a "play." It what way do you mean this in light of the language used in 7.10, "An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play."?

Ah, yes, just one of the confusions of the OBR!

For the purposes of allowing other appeals (7.10), an appeal is not a "play". For the purposes of satisfying the requirements of the balk rule (8.05d), an appeal IS a "play".

[Lapopez]

At the end of OBR 8.05, it states, "With a runner on first base the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward first, and throw to second. This is not to be interpreted as throwing to an unoccupied base." What is this in regards to? I assume this applies to the case when the pitcher is "making a play" as stated in 8.05d, but why isn't this language repeated in this note? I also assume this would apply more for a left handed pitcher?

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Lapopez
At the end of OBR 8.05, it states, "With a runner on first base the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward first, and throw to second. This is not to be interpreted as throwing to an unoccupied base." What is this in regards to? I assume this applies to the case when the pitcher is "making a play" as stated in 8.05d, but why isn't this language repeated in this note? I also assume this would apply more for a left handed pitcher?

1. The OBR contains many editing errors. Yes this pertains to making a play.
2. No differentiation is made between RHP and LHP.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Lapopez
At the end of OBR 8.05, it states, "With a runner on first base the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward first, and throw to second. This is not to be interpreted as throwing to an unoccupied base." What is this in regards to?

It's in regards to turning past first and throwing to second.

Without the note, some umpires would consider the turn past first to be a motion (and, thus, a feint) to first, and call a balk.

[teacherspit]

"No, you are just horribly misguided.

You can ALWAYS appeal from the rubber - you do not have to disengage, regardless if the base is occupied or unoccupied. You NEVER have to verbalize an appeal attempt - it only has to be an unmistakable act in the judgment of the umpire."

I believe that one has to be able to dissimilate between an appeal and a pickoff. It would be wrong to assume something.
If a pitcher informs you that he is appealing so and so at what base. Yeah now you know. I say he needs to step off. One because the ball is still alive the runners can advance. Two there is a rule against throwing to an unoccupied base while toeing the rubber.

GB you contradict yourself. If the defense doesn't verbalize their intention of making an appeal and the pitcher throws to an occupied base while in contact with the rubber, then how do you whether it was a pickoff attempt or not? You can't.

I saw an appeal in Wrigley last week. The pitcher toed the rubber, stepped off the back and threw to third. Now if the pros do it, why in the world would the leaguers do it? Hell they know more than the pros!

And as far as I saying that when the pitcher steps off the rubber he becomes a fielder. I know that you know what I mean. Come on now, is it going to be that technical here? Especially between umps. You know as well as I do that there are unwritten rules between umps that cover this great game.

2-2 count on the batter and he squares and pulls back on a real close pitch, good by!

How about, "well that was a catchers' ball." You true veteran umps know what I am talking about. I reward my catchers. They know it and things get done smoothly. No arguing from the pitcher or coaches on stikes and balls. Well maybe a little but the catcher settles things down.
Now I know that there is not a rule that says the ump takes care of his catchers.

I called an obstruction call last night during a Kentucky State Babe Ruth game between two teams that have never seen me in their lives. It was late in a 2-0 game. The BR was throw out at second. Everyone was cheering and screaming. I called time and announced Obstruction First Baseman. The Defensive team didn't even question it. The defensive fans didn't even yell at me. Why because it was the right call, maybe, but I would to think that because of my and the field ump's professionalism displayed during the game had a lot to do with it. The finale was 2-1. Great game!

Knowing the rules is not the only thing a makes a good ump. In my opinion it's having a professional attitude, a fairness, a consistent stike zone and being approachable by all. Also, and this is probally the greatest reason of all, teamwork among the umps on the field. It will sale anything.

After the game I was approached by a fan. He thanked me for calling that obstruction, and then for calling a trip to the mound on his son's coach from his dugout. They lost the game. But he was appreciative that an ump would have the "Balls to make those calls." For the record I missed some too!
But I ain't telling them!!

[Rich]

Originally posted by teacherspit
"No, you are just horribly misguided.

You can ALWAYS appeal from the rubber - you do not have to disengage, regardless if the base is occupied or unoccupied. You NEVER have to verbalize an appeal attempt - it only has to be an unmistakable act in the judgment of the umpire."

I believe that one has to be able to dissimilate between an appeal and a pickoff. It would be wrong to assume something.
If a pitcher informs you that he is appealing so and so at what base. Yeah now you know. I say he needs to step off. One because the ball is still alive the runners can advance. Two there is a rule against throwing to an unoccupied base while toeing the rubber.

GB you contradict yourself. If the defense doesn't verbalize their intention of making an appeal and the pitcher throws to an occupied base while in contact with the rubber, then how do you whether it was a pickoff attempt or not? You can't.

I saw an appeal in Wrigley last week. The pitcher toed the rubber, stepped off the back and threw to third. Now if the pros do it, why in the world would the leaguers do it? Hell they know more than the pros!

And as far as I saying that when the pitcher steps off the rubber he becomes a fielder. I know that you know what I mean. Come on now, is it going to be that technical here? Especially between umps. You know as well as I do that there are unwritten rules between umps that cover this great game.

2-2 count on the batter and he squares and pulls back on a real close pitch, good by!

How about, "well that was a catchers' ball." You true veteran umps know what I am talking about. I reward my catchers. They know it and things get done smoothly. No arguing from the pitcher or coaches on stikes and balls. Well maybe a little but the catcher settles things down.
Now I know that there is not a rule that says the ump takes care of his catchers.

I called an obstruction call last night during a Kentucky State Babe Ruth game between two teams that have never seen me in their lives. It was late in a 2-0 game. The BR was throw out at second. Everyone was cheering and screaming. I called time and announced Obstruction First Baseman. The Defensive team didn't even question it. The defensive fans didn't even yell at me. Why because it was the right call, maybe, but I would to think that because of my and the field ump's professionalism displayed during the game had a lot to do with it. The finale was 2-1. Great game!

Knowing the rules is not the only thing a makes a good ump. In my opinion it's having a professional attitude, a fairness, a consistent stike zone and being approachable by all. Also, and this is probally the greatest reason of all, teamwork among the umps on the field. It will sale anything.

After the game I was approached by a fan. He thanked me for calling that obstruction, and then for calling a trip to the mound on his son's coach from his dugout. They lost the game. But he was appreciative that an ump would have the "Balls to make those calls." For the record I missed some too!
But I ain't telling them!!

You can tell becasue the fielder will touch the base and likely look at the umpire to see what he calls.

He never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never is required to step off to make an appeal. Read the fricking book -- it is not a balk for throwing to an unoccupied base when there's an appeal.

Stop being such an OOO and try to find some common sense in umpiring.

[teacherspit]

OK
I thought that I was using commonsense.