Pulled Foot - A first

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I have never heard anyone outside of this board talk about your article. But I have had several conversations about what was said in the other publications. But then again, that might mean that you are not as important as you think you are.

Peace

Rut;

I got a job umpiring in a different college baseball association based in part on my writings on officiating.com.

Please tell us: What umpiring or basketball officiating assigments have you obtained based on your writings either on the Internet or in some other publication that we can check out?

Peter

[JRutledge]

The type of play you are talking about is just a simple out of bounds play. Not fouls, not other violations, not even whether a basket counts.

You are talking about balks, pulled feet, dropping of the baseball and just about any other call that you feel took place.

In basketball that is very rare. And when basketball officials want help, we ask for it. It is not acceptable on a basketball court to always come to your partner and tell them about out of bounds plays.

But then again, you know the procedure and how it applies to basketball. Because I have never been taught on the basketball court to "get it right" in front of my partner, because I disagree with the call. That is what you are advocating. If that is wrong, I am sure you will tell me. I am not so much concerned about a pulled foot as I am when you mentioned changing a balk call based on judgment.

And if I did what you suggest on the basketball court, I would never have anyone that would want to work with me. And in basketball, the "get it right" attitude will get you no where if you call things directly in front of your partner. The term "trust your partner" comes to mind there.

You seem to know more about that than JR, who has more officiating experience than most of us here. You seem to know what is acceptable in that game. I agree there are some comparisons, but your example does not apply. Because basketball officials do not "change" our partner's calls, we give help. And we do not give help on plays where our partners are all over it. If they see the out of bounds call and we know they were standing right there, we do not come in a change it. But then again, you know.

Please tell me how many basketball camps you have taught at or attended to tell me otherwise. I have actually been a clinician at basketball camps and taught these procedure. So tell me how much you understand the game of basketball officiating more that me? Since that is your argument for knowing what to do in baseball as your explaination.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by His High Holiness
Rut;

I got a job umpiring in a different college baseball association based in part on my writings on officiating.com.

Please tell us: What umpiring or basketball officiating assigments have you obtained based on your writings either on the Internet or in some other publication that we can check out?

Peter

Well considering that I have never recieved any assignments as a result of writing on the internet, that would be not a one.

But I have not ever met personally a single umpire or official that gained a single assignment for speaking on the internet. As a matter of fact, the most accomplished officials I know in any sport, did not do so thru the internet to get those opportunities. Even your boy, has not claimed to achieved anything thru the internet. He did it like 99.9 percent of those, by working games or attending camps.

Maybe you have recieved opportunities this way, but you would be the only person I have ever heard that has. I have been hired by many assignors or ask to speak and certain events and most do not even know anything about this or any place. And they really do not care. That is what camps and clinics are for.



Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

Next time, use English and logic, please.

The type of play you are talking about is just a simple out of bounds play. Not fouls, not other violations, not even whether a basket counts.

Yes, I know what I said. I pointed out one VERY SIMPLE AND SPECIFIC EXAMPLE. You confused the issue by trying to prove me wrong with tangents.

You are talking about balks, pulled feet, dropping of the baseball and just about any other call that you feel took place.

Again, all things that can be called incorrectly, what is your point?

But then again, you know the procedure and how it applies to basketball. Because I have never been taught on the basketball court to "get it right" in front of my partner, because I disagree with the call. That is what you are advocating.

No I'm not. Jurassic Referee made a comment that was incorrect. I provided a very real example. You jumped in and found out that the water is very deep.

If that is wrong, I am sure you will tell me.
I just did.

I am not so much concerned about a pulled foot as I am when you mentioned changing a balk call based on judgment.

I gave you an example of an incorrect judgement call on a balk that required correction. What is your problem understanding it? Everyone else understood it.

The term "trust your partner" comes to mind there.
Do you need me to go to McGriff's and copy your comment about sometimes having the need to change an incorrect call?
Your words will come back to haunt you.

You seem to know more about that than JR, who has more officiating experience than most of us here.

I know of a guy that worked 42 years of youth baseball. His forty two years did not come in handy when he was asked to fill in as my partner at an Amrican Legion tournament. He made two calls that cost one team the ball game. "Experience" versus doing it for a long time are two different animals.

You seem to know what is acceptable in that game. I agree there are some comparisons, but your example does not apply. Because basketball officials do not "change" our partner's calls, we give help.
When the situation arises, I give my partner my persepctive. If we agree that the call should be changed, we do it - together!

And we do not give help on plays where our partners are all over it.

Like an incorrect balk or a foul ball off the pole?


Please tell me how many basketball camps you have taught at None...i find basketball to be boring.

I have actually been a clinician at basketball camps and taught these procedure. So tell me how much you understand the game of basketball officiating more that me? Since that is your argument for knowing what to do in baseball as your explaination.
If that is your conclusion, then your reading teacher should be fired. Did you notice that you are the only one trying to argue this? Jurassic Referee realizes that his point was challenged successfully and hasn't said a peep. You continue to stun us with your revisionist sense of history.

Even Custer knew when he was going to lose the battle.
You ran out of bullets a long time ago.
By the way, I never once mentioned your race, size or shape. But you keep throwing barbs at HHH. Can't you argue effectively without calling names?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Wow, you must have missed the NCAA tourney.

In the first round Texas Tech game, the ball was whistled out and awarded incorrectly. The crowd went crazy and one of the other officials hustled in and must have convinced him that it was deflected - the correct call. Knight looked perplexed but kept his cool since everyone there, except for the guy making the initial call, knew it was the right thing to do. If there is one coach that will jump all over a guy for usurping his authority, it's the General.

Wow, you missed the point, WCB. DG was alluding to basketball officials over ruling each other. Well, that don't happen. Ever!

The official above changed his OWN call after listening to the information that was offered to him by another official. That happens all the time. He was NOT over ruled by another official. You can NEVER over rule another official in basketball- plain and simple. There's a very simple theory behind the explicit rule that I detailed in my first post. The basketball rulesmakers don't want their officials to try and assert their OWN judgement over another official's judgement.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

Jurassic Referee made a comment that was incorrect.

And what comment might that be?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Please tell me how many basketball camps you have taught at None...i find basketball to be boring.

I was a clinician at Rock Valley College a few weeks ago. I am currently a clinician during a summer league at Oak Park River Forest. I am also speaking at IACAO this year. I acted as a clinician last year with some first year officials and teaching two man and officiating procedures.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
If that is your conclusion, then your reading teacher should be fired. Did you notice that you are the only one trying to argue this? Jurassic Referee realizes that his point was challenged successfully and hasn't said a peep. You continue to stun us with your revisionist sense of history.

I am not going to speak for JR. But knowing him like I do over the years, if he agreed with your point of view, he would probably tell you. JR does not just go and hide on any issue. And if he is done talking to you because you are a tool, he will tell you about that as well. Do not think he just agrees with you at all. Both JR and me are not the only ones that have disagreed with you on this. There have been others that have taken issue with you on your perspective. But Peter and you have made this all about me.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Even Custer knew when he was going to lose the battle.

I did not realize we were keeping score and why people decided not to respond. You seem to know a lot about what other people think and what others seem to feel.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
You ran out of bullets a long time ago.

You should leave your advice to your cronies.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
By the way, I never once mentioned your race, size or shape. But you keep throwing barbs at HHH. Can't you argue effectively without calling names?

I keep thrown barbs at Peter because he is always getting personal with me. You do not have to get personal just by using race or name calling. He is calling me a fraud (which I am still waiting for evidence) without saying how I am a fraud. I guess I am a fraud because I dare challenge the outrageous point of view from two individuals that have never worked with me. Peter lives in DC or some place. What the hell does he know about me? You do not even know anything about me either. You claim I live in a Southwest Suburb. Peter was not even in on this discussion, but he has posted a bunch of things about me. This discussion is not about me, this is about a point of view. He has even posted to challenge me to something that has nothing to do with this discussion. But I am the one name calling?

The bottom line, I do not agree with your point of view on this. Nothing more, nothing less. This is not about the level we do or the camps we attend. I have worked many games with folks on your level that you claim to be working. I have yet remember any of them to see it your way on this issue. Umpires crews are a team, it is not my job to do it for them. They have to make many tough calls without my help. And they have to make those calls when I am watching something else. I would love to watch everything my partner does, but I cannot all the time. And if my partner has a bang, bang play and does not ask for help, I am not giving help. I also discuss this in every single pregame I have. I also discuss the many situations where help should be asked for if needed. Now if you want to say, "this is what we do at the D1 level," that is fine and helpful. Because we all can learn from that. But what happens in the college ranks, does not always apply to the HS and lower levels. For one, we might not have the same amount of umpires on the field and we might not have the same guidelines to handle those situations. The very same thing for your Minor League experience. Anyone that knows anything realizes that all those levels have some different guidelines and philsophies at play. That is the case in my other sports. I know it is not different in baseball. If you want to dismiss my point of view, good. That is your right.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Jun 30th, 2004 at 02:37 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

Did you notice that you are the only one trying to argue this? Jurassic Referee realizes that his point was challenged successfully and hasn't said a peep.

Peep. Just got back from fishing.

Uh, WCB, your statements were completely, totally and unarguably WRONG. Is that plain enough for ya? I posted the rule that proved that. Basketball officials CANNOT EVER over rule another official. Take a minute and read that rule I posted. I didn't make it up. Honest. Please note that I haven't gotten involved in the baseball aspects of this thread. And I won't. To do so without a complete understanding of baseball rules and mechanics would be a very big mistake on my part. Do you see where I'm coming from?

[WindyCityBlue]

Jurassic,
Don't play games.

You claim that basketball officials never overrule a bad call. You said that includes FED and NCAA. I pointed out one very specific occasion where it happened in the NCAA Tourney last year.

Now, you say that it wasn't overruled, the other official came in and gave another persepctive indicating that his call was incorrect. Then the calling official changed the call, but it was not over ruled. This is semantics, not a court of law. When one official makes a bad call and another confers with him (maybe it takes just seconds, maybe longer) to contradict the call - AND IT IS CHANGED - it has been overruled. A ruling was made and it was turned over, thus...OVERRULED!

I have never once said that another official should come in to the play, call "Time" and say, "Nope, that's not the way I saw it. He's safe!" You know how it is handled and what I said. If you need to have it spelled out, then it's no wonder your name implies time gone by.

In baseball, if I see my partner make an error that is correctable, we get together and both relay the change to those involved. Sometimes, I have done it myself when the mistake was especially egregious. Other times, he insisted on explaining it himself.

Does that explain your comment and answer your question? I can't make it any more clear.

[WindyCityBlue]

I was a clinician at Rock Valley College a few weeks ago. I am currently a clinician during a summer league at Oak Park River Forest. I am also speaking at IACAO this year. I acted as a clinician last year with some first year officials and teaching two man and officiating procedures.

Did you ask me if I was a basketball clinician? I don't recall asking you about that sport or your experience with it. I already told you, baseketball is boring.



I am not going to speak for JR.

Too late, your next word was but...

There have been others that have taken issue with you on your perspective.

Yes, they were wrong. When most every major professional sport allows some sort of instant replay or process for overturning bad calls, how can you argue that it is a bad thing?

But Peter and you have made this all about me.

Not so, I replied to a specific ruling from another member. You jumped in and started making accustaions and alluding to things that were not relevant to the discussion.

After I said that I was done with you, you couldn't help getting in a cheap shot. Learn to argue logically, restrict yourself to pertinent facts and then you can play along. Until then, I'll just keep my newspaper rolled up and get ready to swat you again for doing something stupid.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Jurassic,
Don't play games.

You claim that basketball officials never overrule a bad call. You said that includes FED and NCAA. I pointed out one very specific occasion where it happened in the NCAA Tourney last year.

Now, you say that it wasn't overruled, the other official came in and gave another persepctive indicating that his call was incorrect. Then the calling official changed the call, but it was not over ruled. This is semantics, not a court of law. When one official makes a bad call and another confers with him (maybe it takes just seconds, maybe longer) to contradict the call - AND IT IS CHANGED - it has been overruled. A ruling was made and it was turned over, thus...OVERRULED!

I have never once said that another official should come in to the play, call "Time" and say, "Nope, that's not the way I saw it. He's safe!" You know how it is handled and what I said. If you need to have it spelled out, then it's no wonder your name implies time gone by.

In baseball, if I see my partner make an error that is correctable, we get together and both relay the change to those involved. Sometimes, I have done it myself when the mistake was especially egregious. Other times, he insisted on explaining it himself.

Does that explain your comment and answer your question? I can't make it any more clear.

And I guess that I still haven't made myself clear. Let me try again.

YOU ARE WRONG!! ONE BASKETBALL OFFICIAL CANNOT OVER RULE ANOTHER BASKET BALL OFFICIAL. NEVER! WE ARE SPECIFICALLY NOT ALLOWED TO BY RULE.

The play reference that you gave is not applicable at all. The official was NOT over ruled on that play.He changed his own call, but he was NOT over ruled.

Don't try to use your own personal "semantics" to tell me that I am wrong. I ain't. You are.

Btw, again please note that I refrained from name calling. Unlike your little comment in red above.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Yes, they were wrong. When most every major professional sport allows some sort of instant replay or process for overturning bad calls, how can you argue that it is a bad thing?

I can see you are getting out of your element a bit. The NFL can only rule on very specific situations. They cannot overrule penalty calls or most judgment calls for that matter. They can mainly look at catch/no catch. A spot (which I have yet to see overturned btw). And the NFL has a very specific procedures that the coaches are the main people to request those plays.

The NBA or NCAA can only use the clock for timing errors and last second shots.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Not so, I replied to a specific ruling from another member. You jumped in and started making accustaions and alluding to things that were not relevant to the discussion.

I will admit that you recently have taken the higher road, but do not come here trying to act like you are so much better than everyone. If you are so concerned with name calling, you should be taking those same words to Peter. I can post just about anything, and Peter comes after me. Have you got on him? Of course not.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
After I said that I was done with you, you couldn't help getting in a cheap shot. Learn to argue logically, restrict yourself to pertinent facts and then you can play along. Until then, I'll just keep my newspaper rolled up and get ready to swat you again for doing something stupid.

So it is not logic because it does not fly with your point of view? I see. This is about you. You have not once in this post taken issue with my points. All you can do is talk about Peter and how much my argument does not make sense. You used JR all throughout your previous post, then when he came back, you say it does not know what he is talking about.

I will say this, there is a reason our peers say the things they say about you.

Peace

[His High Holiness]

Rut;

You always respond to every post line by line so I will repeat the post below. You seem to have skipped it.

Originally posted by JRutledge

You know Peter, I guess TH has a 6th grade understanding as well. Because he said the exact same thing but much shorter. Because a player has an opinion, does not mean they are to be listened to about officiating issues. I also guess the Hawk coach is having problems with my point of view as well, considering that he agreed with a post directed at Garth.


Peace

Who is TH? I don't see any post by someone named TH. Are you making stuff up again?

Who is the Hawk coach? I don't see anyone posting to this thread called "Hawk Coach." Are you making stuff up again?

Furthermore, I don't see anyone agreeing with you regarding your discussion with Garth. I do see a post by YOU claiming that someone is agreeing with you but there is doubt as to whether he was refering to Garth's post.

You are 0-3, Rut. Some batters have bad days and go 0-3. Try tomorrow.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by His High Holiness
Who is TH? I don't see any post by someone named TH. Are you making stuff up again?

TH or Tony has posted more than anyone on this board. And most of us that work other sports, knows exactly who he is. You cannot be here on this site and not know who he is.

Originally posted by His High Holiness
Who is the Hawk coach? I don't see anyone posting to this thread called "Hawk Coach." Are you making stuff up again?

He is a coach that has posted on the basketball board for years. I did reference both of them in response to what Garth said. Garth is the person that referenced his post on the Basketball board. So if no one saw things my way, I know they would have taken me to task. They have before, I am sure nothing would have stopped them today.

Originally posted by His High Holiness
Furthermore, I don't see anyone agreeing with you regarding your discussion with Garth. I do see a post by YOU claiming that someone is agreeing with you but there is doubt as to whether he was refering to Garth's post.

Hawk did. Tony totally dismissed Garth's claim. Are you sure you can read? The only person that took issue with me, was Garth. And when another person took issue with one of my points, Dan ref made a point of his own. That is what we do, we discuss and debate. Notice, no names were called in doing so.

Originally posted by His High Holiness
You are 0-3, Rut. Some batters have bad days and go 0-3. Try tomorrow.

Here it goes

Now here is the post, read the entire thing. Of course there are disagreements, that is what we do. But TH beat me too the claim that GarthB made. So you can take that for what it is worth.

Peace

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by JRutledge

TH or Tony has posted more than anyone on this board. And most of us that work other sports, knows exactly who he is. You cannot be here on this site and not know who he is.

He is a coach that has posted on the basketball board for years. I did reference both of them in response to what Garth said. Garth is the person that referenced his post on the Basketball board. So if no one saw things my way, I know they would have taken me to task. They have before, I am sure nothing would have stopped them today.


Hawk did. Tony totally dismissed Garth's claim. Are you sure you can read? The only person that took issue with me, was Garth. And when another person took issue with one of my points, Dan ref made a point of his own. That is what we do, we discuss and debate. Notice, no names were called in doing so.


Now here is the post, read the entire thing. Of course there are disagreements, that is what we do. But TH beat me too the claim that GarthB made. So you can take that for what it is worth.

Peace

Rut;

This is bizarre:

Garth's total contribution to the discussion on the basketball board is as follows: (in a response to another one of you grammatically challenged posts)

"Sounds like you're suggesting she should know her place and shut up.

How enlightened.
__________________
GB"

From this, you extrapolate two responses on the basketball board to a totally unrelated discussion on the baseball board and make an assumption that basketball officials have agreed with you on the baseball board.

Bizarre doesn't begin to describe the strange way that your brain is wired.

Recall that Garth stated that you need to learn accepted methods of discussion and argument. WCB has seconded that motion. And I would gather that the rest of the congregation said

AMEN

Let me rephrase my question. What does any of the discussion on the basketball board have to do with the discussion on the baseball board? How does anyone agreeing with you on the basketball board have any relevance to our discussion here?