LL Baseball

[Jay Gilstrap]

This is the situation: Bases loaded. No outs. Both teams told the Infield Fly rule in effect by umpire. Batter hits a soft looper past over pitchers' head. Right when the ball left the bat, Umpire calls batter out under IF. Ball hits ground behind pitcher without even coming close to being caught. (BALL WAS NOT CAUGHT, EVEN TOUCHED BY OPPOSING TEAM) All 3 runners advance. The kid who got to third was told to get back to 2nd because of IF, then tagged out by shortstop. Ball was then thrown to 1st base where 1B tagged the base, runner being called out! TRIPLE PLAY, without the ball even being caught! Imagine that! Besides being one frustrated parent (oh by the way, we lost the game), what recourse should I pursue on this matter? The "Umpire" needs to know this rule, how it is in effect, what it means, and what happens when the ball is not even caught. Please advise,

Thanks, Jay Gilstrap

[DG]

Make sure your base coaches know that if the ball hits the ground in infield fly situation they can advance, without tagging up. Once they reach the next base they should not go back. Who told the runner who made it to 3B to go back to 2B? And who told the runner who made it 2B to go back to 1B? By the way, the runner from 3B who made it home should score unless the out at 1B happened before he crossed the plate, and from all the tagging and throwing around, I doubt that happened. This may be your only recourse since whether it is or is not an infield fly is a judgement call, but you can minimize the damage of a bad call.

[Edited by DG on May 15th, 2004 at 04:41 PM]

[Baseball_North]

Umpires are generally advised to call infield flies at the peak of the "pop up".... this will give the umpires an idea of where the ball will land.

If you call it immediately, it is hard to judge where the ball is going to go.

True Story: A couple of years ago, I was playing (I play as well as umpire)..... and the base umpire called an infield fly the minute my teammate hit the ball. It was a high fly ball, but it was not caught by anyone, not even RF, who had to chase the ball as it took it's first hop about 10 feet short of the right field warning track

Again... stressing the importance of judging an infield fly at the peak of the hit.

[Jay Gilstrap]

The only correct decision made was that the run did score. The runner who made it to third was told to go back to second by the third base coach. The runner at second did not go back, he was called out because of a force out (remember, the "umpire" called the fly out, and the runner left base supposedly (as interpreted by the "umpire") early---saying he left early because he had not "tagged up" (remember, the ball was not caught, not even close to being caught, not even being close to "allowing the ball to drop")

Oh, by the way, we were being close to the time limit of the game. The "umpire" allowed 5 more minutes to the end of the game because of arguing. That is when the other team came back to win the game.
Jay

[whatgameyouwatchinblue]

even tho the rule was misapplied, the recourse you should take is nothing. i agree the umpire needs to know how to enforce the rule but it should not be up to a parent. the best thing for a parent to do is to focus on the basics, hitting, fielding. i have found that the more a coach or parnet is worried about the umps the more the kids lose focus on the game and also begin to focus on the umps. its time to face the facts that you are going to see some horrible calls. heck i have made horrible calls and if you ask some coaches i make them every game. parents are the reason i refuse to do any games for kids under highschool.

[DG]

Originally posted by Jay Gilstrap
The only correct decision made was that the run did score. The runner who made it to third was told to go back to second by the third base coach. The runner at second did not go back, he was called out because of a force out (remember, the "umpire" called the fly out, and the runner left base supposedly (as interpreted by the "umpire") early---saying he left early because he had not "tagged up" (remember, the ball was not caught, not even close to being caught, not even being close to "allowing the ball to drop")

Oh, by the way, we were being close to the time limit of the game. The "umpire" allowed 5 more minutes to the end of the game because of arguing. That is when the other team came back to win the game.
Jay

First of all, the 3B coach should not have told the runner to go back. That was my point about coaches knowing the rules. Secondly (and I mis-read your post, I thought the runner at 2B had been tagged going back to 1B), you should have been able to call time and discuss the ruling with the umpires, point being that it was in error, because runners do not have to tag up on balls that hit the ground regardless of IFF situation. If the umpires would not reverse the call, and your league has provisions for protests, on the basis of rules interpretations, then you could protest. The call on the runner at 2B is definitely a rules interpretation and not a judgement call (ie the IFF call). If you have no protest procedure, and the umpires would not reverse the call then you should mention the call to whatever league official deals with the umpires and hope that this will be discussed with the umpires who work the league, and prevent future occurrence. I hear LL is mostly volunteer umpires so good luck with that...

[kylejt]

"I hear LL is mostly volunteer umpires so good luck with that..."

I don't take money for LL games, so does that make me less rule savy than those who do? I think not. Don't bag the volunteers.

The correct procedure for a misapplication of the rules is a protest, not a five minute arguement. The problem is nobody in the field knew the rules. IFF, by it's definition, is a ball hit high in the air, and the ability of an infielder(pitcher and catcher included) to catch it with ordinary effort. Plus the runners advance at their own peril. Sounds like the whole ruling of IFF was blown by the umpire. Hey, it happens.

So, what did the manager do? Instead of protest, he argues for five minutes, doesn't put in a proper protest, and blows a chance for a win. A protest, calmly filed in a reasonable tone, won't p*ss off an umpire, and gets the game going. But now you've got a bad umpire mad at you, and possibly your team. Dumb.

The ability to properly file a protest gives your team an edge. Why more managers don't have this skill is beyond me. IT'S SO SIMPLE!

[Baseball_North]

In my association, you must pay a fee to protest. I think it is $50 or something, and you only get it back if you win the protest.

Maybe that is why it isn't "SIMPLE".

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by Baseball_North
In my association, you must pay a fee to protest. I think it is $50 or something, and you only get it back if you win the protest.

Maybe that is why it isn't "SIMPLE".

Little League prohibits protest fees.

[wobster]

I agree that in LL at least, parents should not get on the umpire too much. Chances are, you are wrong. Here is a situation that I ran into today that had the fans up in arms and I asked 3 other officials of the call afterwards and they told me I was correct and the parent was an idiot.

R3 is stealing home. B4 hits a dribbler to pitcher who easily picks it up, and makes what should be a routine play at home. F2 drops ball when tagging out runner, so they are both in a pile wrestling with each other to get to ball/bag (not WWF stuff, just trying to get around each other). R3 gets to bag first and scores with a little push on F2. Hilarity ensues. Fans go nuts trying to say that R3 had to get out of the way so F2 could get ball. I flat out refused to argue with them and continued the game. After inning, F2's father continues to argue that F2 had right to baseline, not R3.

I am pretty sure that was a cut and dry call, but the parents got pretty upset because they did not know the rules.


However, in your situation, it was clearly a misinterpretation of the rules, but arguing and yelling at official will do NO good, other than tick him off. As was suggested, manager should have called time and calmly talked to the plate umpire. If you have a rule book, that gives you more leverage for a rules call. A good umpire will look in the book on a rules question, IMO. The 3B coach should not have sent the runner back to 2nd. That was stupid.

As for little league umpires being volunteers. At least around here they get paid, so there is an incentive to know the rules....you won't get asked back. If they are not getting paid for the plate, they are probably some sort of board member, etc. It is too much work for no pay. Either way, umpires MUST know the rules. It only hurts the kids.

I would say something about the call to whatever sort of governing body your area has. They should either get another umpire or correct his misreadings of the rulebook.

[kylejt]

" If you have a rule book, that gives you more leverage for a rules call. A good umpire will look in the book on a rules question, IMO. "

Negative. A good umpire knows the rules, and never busts open the rule book on the field.

"The 3B coach should not have sent the runner back to 2nd. That was stupid."

Nope. If the umpire instructed the runner back to second he'd better go. The manager not protesting an easily reversed call is stupid.

"As for little league umpires being volunteers. At least around here they get paid, so there is an incentive to know the rules....you won't get asked back. If they are not getting paid for the plate, they are probably some sort of board member, etc. It is too much work for no pay."

It's not too much work, really. I do 5-6 games a week. It takes less time than running a team. Easy, no. But not too much work. No reason the parents in your league should pay for umpires when they could do it themselves.

" Either way, umpires MUST know the rules. It only hurts the kids. "

We agree, but so should every manager. They owe it to the kids not to make mistakes like this.

Protest. It's free in Little League.

[wobster]

kylejt - I doubt the umpire sent the kid back to second and then let the kid tag him on the way. I didn't read anywhere that the umpire told the kid to go back to second. I read that the coach did that. That out was the coaches fault and can not be protested, IMO.

All of the good little league umpires around here carry a rule book with them, as it says in our licensing organization's rules. I have seen many instances where the umpire will stop the game and point out the rule to the coach to settle the argument so he doesn't have to deal with it. To me, that's smart. It is a lot easier to stop the game for 5 minutes to get a parent off my back for good than have him ride my *** all day about a call he doesn't understand.

The fact that you do 5-6 games per week for free is great. I applaud you. But the simple fact, around this area anyway, is that parents do not know the rules enough to umpire. Most of the arguments I hear are due to the fact that the parents do not know the rules. I don't think I want a parent who doesn't know the rules umpiring for the kids. You would be hard pressed to find a parent who likes umpiring enough to study the rules and know them as well as a guy who is getting paid to do it. Pay gives him incentive to study and know the rules.

The parents actually agreed to give the town league umpires in this area a 5 dollar per game raise, because the ones we have do such a good job.

The managers should know the rules, but like field umpires, a lot are simply parents doing the best they can. Most, at least around here, do not even know what a rule book looks like. Most of the time, when a certified umpire such as myself does a town league game, he gets bombarded with rules questions that other town league coaches/umpires do not know.

Yes, he should protest to whatever sanctioning body he has.

[wobster]

JTkyle - just so we are clear, I am only talking about little league umpires carrying rule books. Higher levels should not open rule books on the field.

[bluezebra]

"I have seen many instances where the umpire will stop the game and point out the rule to the coach to settle the argument so he doesn't have to deal with it. To me, that's smart."

To me, and most umpires, that's DUMB. Bring out a rule book, and almost every call you make will get, "Hey blue. Check the book". If a manager/coach disagrees with your interpretation of a rule, let 'em protest. If one brought a rule book on the field, I told them to put it away, or leave the area. I would discuss the rule AFTER the game, not during.