Bad timing! Right call (I think)

[Jake80]

Ground ball between 1st and 2nd. Second baseman gloves the ball but pitcher doesn't cover 1st. Race to the bag and fielder barely beats the batter/runner to the bag. I call the out. Big train wreck. Nothing malicious. Fielder drops the ball. I reverse the call to safe. Damn! That was bad timing. However I believe I did get the call right according to Jaksa/Roder page 26-27. Can someone please confirm that I made the proper call or correct my interpretation? Thanks.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Jake80
Ground ball between 1st and 2nd. Second baseman gloves the ball but pitcher doesn't cover 1st. Race to the bag and fielder barely beats the batter/runner to the bag. I call the out. Big train wreck. Nothing malicious. Fielder drops the ball. I reverse the call to safe. Damn! That was bad timing. However I believe I did get the call right according to Jaksa/Roder page 26-27. Can someone please confirm that I made the proper call or correct my interpretation? Thanks.

Depends on whether you buy into J/R, I guess.

Personally, I think the BR was probably out once the base was touched. If the train wreck happened afterwards, I'd still have an out.

--Rich

[David B]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Depends on whether you buy into J/R, I guess.

Personally, I think the BR was probably out once the base was touched. If the train wreck happened afterwards, I'd still have an out.

--Rich

I think if you thought the collision allowed the ball to be dropped then call the out.

If not, then you might have made the right call.

Thanks
David

[wpiced]

David,

Make it easy on your self. If the ball comes loose and hits the ground, the runner is safe and the fielder did not maintain control of it. Control is an important part of any catch or in gloving a throw.

J/R, OBR, PBUC, NFHS, and all other levels of baseball agree that the only exception to the above is IF the ball is dropped while transfering the ball from the glove to the throwing had, or in throwing the ball. That would not affect the call. But you must make that decission.

At first base, or any base for that matter, after the play, simply watch the fielder for a few seconds to see what happens. Then pump the runner out. ALWAYS give the fielder time to complete his play by transfering the ball to his throwing hand. The screw up that you described will never happen again.

[wpiced]

MY LAST POST WAS DIRECTED TO JAKE 80. SORRY DAVID.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

If F4 fielded ball and ran from that position to 1st base, this is not an issue of a catch being made. Carry the ball that far - you've got control.

Drop after a force out due to an incidental collision....??? I would have to see the play but I think I'm going to stick with the out. A non-force out play that involves making a catch and then a subsequent tag, I'm going to require that the defense maintain control of the ball until after the play is completed.

JMO. Tough call without knowing the situation and seeing the play.

[Jake80]

DownTown

I understand what you are saying and I probably would have called the play that way until I read J/R which seems to clearly state that the play is not completed until some sort of attempt to voluntarily release or transfer the ball is made. I am wondering how many subscribe to the J/R interp and how many would just call the out in that situation.

[Kaliix]

I would think that if a fielder cleanly fields a ground ball and then begins to run to a base, he has already made a legal catch since "...the continuing action of the catch has been completed."(FED 2-9-1) I would also think that if the fielder already had possession of the ball and ran to the base to complete a force, that the BR is out the instant the fielder beats him to the base. Anything after that is immaterial, the out already being made.

For those of you who say the BR is safe because the ball was dropped and was not a catch, let me ask you this. Let's say the scenario is slightly different. Let's say F4 catch's a line drive towards the 1B side and R1 is stealing on the play. Now there is a race back to the 1st base bag, F4 beats the runner to the bag and then there is a collision. Is R1 out or safe. More importantly, are you going to call the BR safe now because F4 didn't make a legal catch.

I think that once the fielder catch's the ball and the continuing action of the catch is completed, the BR is out. If he starts racing to the bag and drops the ball because of a collision, that doesn't mean that there wasn't a legal catch!

Now you could argue that he might be out or safe after a collision and a dropped ball, but the catch has already been made and I think the BR is out as soon as the fielder (F4 in the example) beats him to the bag.

Control of a ball only counts when a fielder is catching a fly ball, presumably on the run, and the continuing action of the catch means he continues to run after the catch. That doesn't pertain to catching a ground ball, atleast not by FED Rules.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Jake80
DownTown

I understand what you are saying and I probably would have called the play that way until I read J/R which seems to clearly state that the play is not completed until some sort of attempt to voluntarily release or transfer the ball is made. I am wondering how many subscribe to the J/R interp and how many would just call the out in that situation.

On this point the J/R correctly refers to guidelines used for a fielder who takes a throw.

The latest J/R covers that on page 14. Your play -- changing out to safe because the fielder in control of the ball at the time he touched the base dropped it because of a legal collision. You'll see that the material on which you decided your ruling was correct [out to safe] is in red, which, according to Rick, means that the items: "are innovations that the authors believe to be unique or original [to their book]. In some cases they are words used to make certain concepts more clear. In other cases they are intepretations of plays or rules that have not yet been specifically addressed by the Major or Minor Leagues. ...[T]he words and interpreations ... are not to be considered those officially used on the fields of professional baseball."

A runner is out the instant he or a force base is tagged by a fielder in control of the ball before the fielder touches the base. There's no time frame involved.

[wpiced]

THANK YOU PAPPA C. We can learn a lot on these boards when a knowlegable official can also express and convey the intricate rules of America's favorate passtime.

[Jake80]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carl Childress
[B]

Originally posted by Jake80
DownTown



The latest J/R covers that on page 14. Your play -- changing out to safe because the fielder in control of the ball at the time he touched the base dropped it because of a legal collision. You'll see that the material on which you decided your ruling was correct [out to safe] is in red, which, according to Rick, means that the items: "are innovations that the authors believe to be unique or original [to their book]. In some cases they are words used to make certain concepts more clear. In other cases they are intepretations of plays or rules that have not yet been specifically addressed by the Major or Minor Leagues. ...[T]he words and interpreations ... are not to be considered those officially used on the fields of professional baseball."

A runner is out the instant he or a force base is tagged by a fielder in control of the ball before the fielder touches the base. There's no time frame involved.

Carl

So if I understand correctly the J/R interp is how they think the rule should applied but in actuality this type of play should be judged on the basis of "does the fielder have control of ball when he is in contact with the base" and what happens after that does not affect the safe or out status of the runner.