Never touched the base (two pitches)

[mcrowder]

Wow - this thread's still here? I thought we answered this several times. Looking above we have. Why do you persist in asking the same question after it's been answered.

THE RUNNER "ACQUIRED" THE BASE AS SOON AS THE NEXT PITCH WAS THROWN.

Therefore the "touching the bases" rule is irrelevant. That rule applies to a continuous play.

[Rich]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Wow - this thread's still here? I thought we answered this several times. Looking above we have. Why do you persist in asking the same question after it's been answered.

THE RUNNER "ACQUIRED" THE BASE AS SOON AS THE NEXT PITCH WAS THROWN.

Therefore the "touching the bases" rule is irrelevant. That rule applies to a continuous play.

The one comment wayyyyy up in this thread I don't understand is where someone suggested that the defense call time and appeal. I'm not granting time when someone's leading off base.....and if I did, I'm certainly not going to entertain an appeal at the base the runner's leading from, even in NFHS rules where a verbal appeal is allowed!

--Rich

[sir_eldren]

There's more than one person out there who's sitting there scratching his head over why a person who never touched second can not be throw out on appeal when he gets to third on the next batted ball and yet an appeal to second (because he never touched it) will be called "safe." It's just odd that you never really have to touch a base in the game if the defense doesn't try to tag you out.

Don't get up in somebody's face because they don't understand an idea that goes against a few of the basic ideas of the game of baseball: touch the bases in order, touch the base so you can't be tagged out, and Touch The Base.

The way I see it is this: You can't have an appeal until a base has been missed, and if he has acquired a base beyond second he has missed the bag. But not until he has advanced has he missed anything.

I understand what all of you are saying, but I just don't think it makes any sense.

So how about a similar situation:
A runner on second has a nice leadoff, the batter hits one foul. He walks towards second but never touches it. The next ball is hit short to the outfield and he makes it to third. The batter is thrown out at first, and the ball is returned to the pitcher. The second baseman, understanding the rule about having to touch up on a foul ball tells the pitcher to throw him the ball. He steps on the bag and the base umpire calls what?

-Craig

[Rich]

Originally posted by sir_eldren
There's more than one person out there who's sitting there scratching his head over why a person who never touched second can not be throw out on appeal when he gets to third on the next batted ball and yet an appeal to second (because he never touched it) will be called "safe." It's just odd that you never really have to touch a base in the game if the defense doesn't try to tag you out.

Don't get up in somebody's face because they don't understand an idea that goes against a few of the basic ideas of the game of baseball: touch the bases in order, touch the base so you can't be tagged out, and Touch The Base.

The way I see it is this: You can't have an appeal until a base has been missed, and if he has acquired a base beyond second he has missed the bag. But not until he has advanced has he missed anything.

I understand what all of you are saying, but I just don't think it makes any sense.

So how about a similar situation:
A runner on second has a nice leadoff, the batter hits one foul. He walks towards second but never touches it. The next ball is hit short to the outfield and he makes it to third. The batter is thrown out at first, and the ball is returned to the pitcher. The second baseman, understanding the rule about having to touch up on a foul ball tells the pitcher to throw him the ball. He steps on the bag and the base umpire calls what?

-Craig

Safe, of course.

--Rich

[scyguy]

touch up on a foul ball?? what is that? In NFHS there is no such thing. If there is, please cite the rule.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by sir_eldren

So how about a similar situation:
A runner on second has a nice leadoff, the batter hits one foul. He walks towards second but never touches it. The next ball is hit short to the outfield and he makes it to third. The batter is thrown out at first, and the ball is returned to the pitcher. The second baseman, understanding the rule about having to touch up on a foul ball tells the pitcher to throw him the ball. He steps on the bag and the base umpire calls what? -Craig

Craig: This "retouch after a foul ball" is a mistake left over from the do-over of the OBR in 1950. It is true the runners "must" retouch their bases after a foul ball: "The umpire shall not put the ball in play until all runners have retouched their bases." (5.09c)

But what if he does?

The runner who did not retouch is not subject to appeal! That infraction was dropped from 7.10 during the revision. Nowadays, a runner is subject to appeal for four infractions only: (1) failing to retouch after a caught fly ball; (2) missing a base while advancing or returning; (3) overrunning or oversliding first and failing to return immediately; or (4) overrunning or oversliding home plate, thereafter making no attempt to return.

When I played as a kid, we had to retouch after the foul. When I started umpiring, the rule had changed. But coaches still said: "Get back to the base." Those coaches taught kids who became coaches who taught kids who.... Today, there are still coaches who think a runner must retouch after the foul ball or be in jeopardy of an out.

One needs to know the purpose of the "retouch-after-a-foul" rule. It is to ensure that runners -- at the time of the next pitch -- are near their original base!

Play: R2: B1 flies deep to right. It is obvious the ball will not be caught, so R2 takes off and rounds third. The ball is both foul and uncaught. So he stops at third -- illegally. He's got to get back to second, you see.

So the practice in upper-level baseball is to make sure the ball is not alive until all runners have returned to the vicinity of the bases occupied at the time of the pitch that the batter hit foul.

In your play, then, the runner cannot be called out because he has committed no baserunning infraction.

[Edited by Carl Childress on May 7th, 2004 at 03:50 PM]

[sir_eldren]

I understand better now. Thank you for your explanations. So basically, we use a bit of human rationality and good judgment. If the defense doesn't demand he touch the bag by trying to get him out, then we assume that they've given him the base even though he didn't touch it.

Ahh... it becomes a bit clearer.

Thanks,
Craig

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by scyguy
touch up on a foul ball?? what is that? In NFHS there is no such thing. If there is, please cite the rule.

Well, 8-2-2 and 8-2-8, for starters

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by sir_eldren
I understand better now. Thank you for your explanations. So basically, we use a bit of human rationality and good judgment. If the defense doesn't demand he touch the bag by trying to get him out, then we assume that they've given him the base even though he didn't touch it.

Ahh... it becomes a bit clearer.

Thanks,
Craig

If you're talking about the re-touch after an uncaught foul you haven't quite grasped it.

1) An uncaught foul is a dead ball.

2) The defense cannot put the runner out (by tag or appeal) when the ball is dead.

The ball will not be made live until certain conditions are met.

For the foul ball part:

5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when_
e) A foul ball is not caught; runners return. The umpire shall not put the ball in play until all runners have retouched their bases;

The responsibility lies with the umpire and there is no penalty specified. Thus if the player does not retouch he cannot be penalized. There is no assumption of touch involved.

For the ball to be made live, the pitcher must be on the rubber with the ball. The defense can then try a pickoff if they wish, but it is not an appeal for failure to retouch in the 7.10 sense, thus the runner would have to be tagged.