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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 06, 2004, 06:10am
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I was BU for a junior baseball game Sat. R1 and R2 with two outs. Batter hits a high pop up between catcher and pitcher. As pitcher is calling for the ball and ready to make the catch, the BR who is approx. 10 feet from the pitcher screams, RAAAAWWWW from the top of his lungs. The pitcher hearing him looks over at him as the ball falls to the ground. The PU calls the BR out for interference. The 3rd base coach (The Assist. coach) goes balistic. As he walks across the field to his dugout, he asks the PU where he is from.

PU: What difference does that make?

Coach: I was wondering where you were from to make a terrible call like that!

PU: I forgot more about baseball than you'll ever know.

Coach: You don't know too much making a call like that.

I'm at 1st base at this time watching the coach go into the dugout wondering why he hasn't been tossed yet. As I am watching and listening I hear from the coach, "Those umpires are terrible". BING! "your gone". I toss him and tell the Manager his assistant has been ejected.

After the game I spoke to the PU and explained he shouldn't have egged him on by responding to him and humiliating him with his comments, he should have just tossed him, no added comments were needed.

I was going to let my partner handle the situation until I heard the coach make the statement he did.

Should I have involved myself and handled the situation as I did?


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 06, 2004, 07:10am
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally posted by thumpferee
I was going to let my partner handle the situation until I heard the coach make the statement he did.

Should I have involved myself and handled the situation as I did?
thumpferee,
You were right.
Your partner was wrong.
Assistant coach is what he is.
mick

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 06, 2004, 08:20am
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Cool Two Thoughts

Quote:
Originally posted by thumpferee
The 3rd base coach (The Assist. coach) goes balistic. As he walks across the field to his dugout, he asks the PU where he is from. ....

...."Those umpires are terrible". BING! "your gone". I toss him and tell the Manager his assistant has been ejected.

First, assistants are not allowed to express opinions about anything other than the weather and other pleasantries. Never let an assistant mouth off or discuss a call. Your partner should have ejected him immediately under well established umpire protocols.

BUT...

Second, it is sometimes better for the umpire not involved in the situation to eject the coach. Your partner had the problem with the coach and you ejected him. When the report goes out, it makes the coach look worse that he had a problem with both umpires instead of just one umpire. The coach has a problem with authority figures instead of a problem with a single personality. This gives the coach a much bigger problem with his AD or league president.

For political purposes inside of an umpire organization, this also works in your favor. No matter how much the umpire may be in the right, some blame is almost always placed on the umpire for not controlling the situation. If nothing else, the big dogs attempt to use an ejection as an excuse to deny you better games. After all, you could not "handle" the situation. It's the umpire's fault that an assistant coach is a jackass. Or, the big dogs take the side of the coach and say that the umpire blew the call. If the umpire was not incompetent, then the coach would not be a jackass.

When an ejection goes down as you described it, the big dogs have very little to get a handle on with which to undermine your reputation. The PU, who made the call, got the coach to the dugout without an ejection. The PU also established himself as an a$$hole, which is sometimes a good reputation to have, The BU, who had nothing to do with the call, ejected the coach after overhearing one inappropiate comment. There was no situation or call that the BU was part of.

In professional umpire terms (MLB or minor league), this is totally f$$$ed up. In political terms of amateur umpire groups, this may be a very savvy way to handle it.

Peter
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 06, 2004, 12:31pm
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Thanks guys for your input and uplifting responses!
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Old Thu May 06, 2004, 08:05pm
DG DG is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by thumpferee
I was BU for a junior baseball game Sat. R1 and R2 with two outs. Batter hits a high pop up between catcher and pitcher. As pitcher is calling for the ball and ready to make the catch, the BR who is approx. 10 feet from the pitcher screams, RAAAAWWWW from the top of his lungs. The pitcher hearing him looks over at him as the ball falls to the ground. The PU calls the BR out for interference. The 3rd base coach (The Assist. coach) goes balistic. As he walks across the field to his dugout, he asks the PU where he is from.

PU: What difference does that make?

Coach: I was wondering where you were from to make a terrible call like that!

PU: I forgot more about baseball than you'll ever know.

Coach: You don't know too much making a call like that.

I'm at 1st base at this time watching the coach go into the dugout wondering why he hasn't been tossed yet. As I am watching and listening I hear from the coach, "Those umpires are terrible". BING! "your gone". I toss him and tell the Manager his assistant has been ejected.

After the game I spoke to the PU and explained he shouldn't have egged him on by responding to him and humiliating him with his comments, he should have just tossed him, no added comments were needed.

I was going to let my partner handle the situation until I heard the coach make the statement he did.

Should I have involved myself and handled the situation as I did?


No. Let the PU deal with it. As the PU I would have handled a little differently, but I would not be pleased with my partner tossing somebody that I had a converstation with and my partner had not. I refuse to get into a converstation about what assistants can do. That post went 8 pages, and nowhere....
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Old Fri May 07, 2004, 09:24am
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out of curiousity

for OBR can someone give me a rule number and quote that disallows screaming on the field and creates the interference call. I'm not disputting it or the reasons behind it just would like to know and re-read the rule.
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Old Fri May 07, 2004, 11:32am
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Re: out of curiousity

Quote:
Originally posted by 3appleshigh
for OBR can someone give me a rule number and quote that disallows screaming on the field and creates the interference call. I'm not disputting it or the reasons behind it just would like to know and re-read the rule.
2.00 INTERFERENCE, section (a).
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Old Fri May 07, 2004, 12:55pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by DG

No. Let the PU deal with it. As the PU I would have handled a little differently, but I would not be pleased with my partner tossing somebody that I had a converstation with and my partner had not. I refuse to get into a converstation about what assistants can do. That post went 8 pages, and nowhere.... [/B]
My partner did not hear the comment from the dugout though.
My thought was if we let this guy get away with this type of behavior, we would have to allow the other coaches, fans and players to express their displeasure with calls made.

But I do see your point.
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Old Fri May 07, 2004, 02:25pm
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sorry DG I don't agree with you on this. I understand your feelings, but if my partner wants to eject a coach then great, go for it!! What is the harm? It doen't make you look bad, does it??

I have ejected coaches when they were barking at my partner. You are a team, work together, share the fun.
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Old Fri May 07, 2004, 06:02pm
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Thumbs down Should have known better

than to read this thread... ejected a coach yesterday.

first ejection in probably 4 or 5 years. I wanted to yell also... AAArrrrgggghh!

Have worked in area for over 10 years and nearly every coach knows me by name or at least recognises me. Well so much for that; these coaches, V and JV were new and I hadn't seen them all season. So not much for recognition... then to top it off, I allowed my partner, a definite JV level at best, official have the dish for the Varsity match... that put me behind for the JV.

Bottom of the first, catcher frames a curve-ball pitch on the inside. I call ball. He pulls it in a little bit and continues to hold the pitch, then he leans his head over and looks at his hand location etc... I immediately walk around in front and dust the plate and say something along the lines of "Don't do that. Don't try to call balls and strikes for me. Don't try to show me up. You get to catch, I get to call the balls and strikes."

A few pitches more and one comes low outside. Ball. He shakes his head as if I had made the wrong call and then of course the coach now asks him where the pitch was located. He shakes head and shrugs his shoulders. I responded from behind him this time "I already told you not to do that. Don't argue balls and strikes with me. Once more and we'll find us a new catcher." Inning ends. Next half passes.

Now coach comes out about half way between the dugout and home plate. He's probably in his early to mid 20's. I'm 43 and have been officiating baseball for more than 20 years. He asks in a rather arrogant, telling tone of voice "What are you telling my catcher." "I'm telling him to quit arguing my calls. He's holding the pitch too long and shaking his head about my calls." varsity coach arrives to join the party. "Well, that's framing and that's part of baseball and you need to learn it." "What he's doing is not framing. He's holding a few pitches too long and shaking his head to argue my calls. A catcher arguing my calls is not part of baseball. And it is going to stop or we're going to get a new catcher." I turned and walked back toward home only to hear the JV coach now say "I know more about baseball than you will ever know."

Oh great. "You're gone coach. I want you in the dugout for the rest of the game. And I don't want to hear a sound out of you."

Last out of that inning is an infield hit. I trail the runner down towards 1st. BU calls runner out.

I return to 3rd base sideline. Coach jumps to the front of the dugout and starts screaming that I'm doing the wrong thing. I shouldn't be running down toward 1st. I should be running toward 3rd (there were no other runners). I should go back to umpiring school. I should get recertified. "I told you to be quiet." "What ? I'm in the dugout. I can do anything I want in hear."

"Coach you're gone. Gone. GONE! I want you out of here completely. No more dugout. Out of sight. Out of sound. You're gone."

"I don't have to leave." "Yes, you do, or this game will be forfeit." (I've never had a situation where I forfeited a game.)

He slips out one side of the dugout and walks a couple steps behind the dugout where I can't see him. I'm waiting because I haven't seen him leave. I wait probably 10-15 seconds then walk down and look at the area where he left. I don't see him so I walk back towards home to continue with next half inning. AND THERE HE IS at the other end of the dogout looking through the fence.

"I told you, you've got to leave. Out of sight; out of sound." "I don't have to leave. I'm off the field." " I told you, you had to leave or the game will be forfeited." "I don't have to leave."

I took the balls out of my bag, threw them across the diamond and yelled to the home coach. "Sorry. Game's over. Forfeited to Shelley (home team)." Varsity coach now arrives back on the scene. Asking that we continue. "Well, I would like to, but your assistant won't leave." "He'll leave." "He's got to leave now or we're done." He finally left - took him a full minute to walk off the field.

Rest of the game was pretty good. Catcher was still a childish putz - wouldn't look at me, wouldn't talk, but he didn't obviously argue anymore pitches.

Home team came from behind to take lead. Visitor, without JV coach ties it up in the 6th. Tied into the 9th. Visitor scores 2 in the top of the 9th. Home doesn't score. Game over.

Now I've got to file that report.... and remember to be cautious about what I read.


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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 08, 2004, 12:48am
DG DG is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by scyguy
sorry DG I don't agree with you on this. I understand your feelings, but if my partner wants to eject a coach then great, go for it!! What is the harm? It doen't make you look bad, does it??

I have ejected coaches when they were barking at my partner. You are a team, work together, share the fun.
No problem. This discussion forum is all about disagreeing with others. I don't need, or want, a partner tossing someone on my behalf. However, if I heard a comment that I thought was ejectable, I would tell my partner that I would eject for that comment, it's still his to do. He has got to learn sometime.
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Old Sat May 08, 2004, 12:58am
DG DG is offline
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Many of the umps on this board would say "eject assistants, they have not right to argue". Aside from that point, which I will not debate, the only other issue I see is that when you threw the balls across the diamond and said the game was forfeit, there should be no further discussion and no change. I have only forfeited one game in my life, similar situation, ejected coach (except a head coach) who would not leave. It was not a HS game. In my state they don't want forfeits. So I guess if it came up in a HS game I would have to suspend the game until reason took over insanity and we could resume play.
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Old Sat May 08, 2004, 08:08am
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I agree with you, DG.
When it gets to the point where I've called it a forfeit; that's what it is. No more discussion or apologizing on anyone's part is going to change that outcome. Having said that, I'd make it very clear to that coach what was coming if he didn't comply (out of sight and sound) immediately. If he doesn't immediately disappear, then he can't say he wasn't warned what the outcome was going to be. FORFEIT!! BALLGAME!!
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Old Sat May 08, 2004, 08:28am
MPC MPC is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Follett
I agree with you, DG.
FORFEIT!! BALLGAME!!
Absolutely. No Ghostmen or Do Overs in organized ball.

I've had a few coaches who were really sure that they didn't have to leave the field or that they really weren't ejected or that they really weren't done dishing out their crap. I ask one simple question that requires an immediate response, "Are you refusing to leave the field?" I usually ask that so that the assistants and/or someone who knows what is coming next can hear. He will either tuck his tail and run or someone will yank his tail out of there.

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