Time to stir the pot.


Recent game, I saw a PU watch an idiot draw a line in the ground after a clled strike. He DID NOT eject.

Now, this isn't Pro baseball, it is low-level adult ball. Can ANYONE out here tell me why you wouldn't toss the guy who draws the line and tells everyone tht you are an incompetent a** in the process of doing so?

Also, if you don't tell me how your actions WILL NOT screw the guy who needs to deal with him the next time he does it.

For one, this is not an automatic ejection in my book. You can send a message without throwing out a kid. You can make it be known that he now has defined his strike zone and call anything that looks like it comes near the boxes and he will get the message. I had this happen to me after I struck out a kid and I had a talk with an experienced assistant and I had no problems the rest of the game. And I know a lot of very experienced umpires that do the same. Now this does not mean you should never not eject a kid, but "there is more than one way to skin a cat." And a good coach is going to get the message and take care of it himself.

But that is my opinion, I am sure someone else will tell you what they do.

Peace

If I read the post right, this was not a kid, but a low adult. I assume a low adult is over 18 but not over 28. In my area there is an active adult league with 28 and over and 38 and over leagues. Umpiring adult ball is different than anything else. They are more vocal about calls, they play a lot of money to play, and they usually don't have more than 10 or 11 guys at any one game and a lot of times only 9. Most of them are just happy to be out on a Sunday afternoon playing baseball. Some bring their wife and kids, and it is a fun day for the family. So I cut them a little slack. Drawing a line on the ground would be humorous to me, in the adult league, and I would not eject for this. Call me a name and you are gone, but there are many other transgessions that I would just shrug off. I don't worry about the next guy. I assume he will handle as he sees best.

Lastly, if this was not a called third strike, his strike zone just got real big...

If I am truly a professional and I know who really has the last say, why am I going to lower myself to this character, just to prove something ,to someone else. Some players really get off on getting you irratated. When you overlook the small things and handle business when you need to, YOU are much more effective as an official.

The somewhere near the strike zone call on the next pitch is an very effective method that I have also used. But, for the most I don't let the plyers or coaches rile me. Why?

SIMPLE, I HAVE THE FINAL SAY. No need to flaunt it.

NSump

Last time a batter drew a line in the dirt that I warned him not to draw, I asked him for his bat. After he gave it to me, I thanked him while putting the bat handle into the line and continued the line to the gate. I opened the gate and drew an arrow at the end of the line ( -> ), walked back, handed the bat to the batter and while pointing to the line and sweeping my arm upward told him to follow the line, he was GONE for the night!

Michael

Finally.

Just a question here. Is this line running length wise through the batter's box showing how inside the pitch was?

Bull***, eject his a** and the next time that you run into him stick it up his a** again. There is nobody involved with baseball that doesn't know that he can not do that. He is showing you up, an he knows it. That is the reason that he is doing in. Take care of the problem. Talk to him? All that does is let him know that he got away with it. The coach might talk to him, but that does not take care of his attitude. He just embarrased you, and your are obliged to return the favor. Final say? If you know that you have the final say, and the players know, why don't you use it here. There is no reason that this guy should stay in the game. Nobody will think any less of you.

I was starting to think everyone was spineless here.

What is this, "cut him slack" crap. What is this "I'll talk to the coach and he will deal with it," crap?

The last few have dealt with it the way it needs to be - toss him.

DON'T YOU GET IT, THIS IS A FELONY. Why keep him in the game? Tell me how that helps?

For those, like Rutledge who want to keep this idiot around:

1. If you then open up your zone for him, you are cheating.
2. It doesn't matter WHERE the line is.
3. When he draws the line on me the next night, I have a sh*thouse becuase YOU didn't do your job.
4. Adult, youth, day, night, spring, fall, it doesn't matter...eject him.

I guess telling everyone you are an incompetent a** by drawing the line isn't a big deal for some jellyfish.

Ya know, there was time when I actually DID NOT have enough self-confidence in my officiating, that I believed I really had to SHOW people who was in charge of the game.

Over time, I matured in my officiating skills, mechanics and knowledge, to the point that I don't have to prove to you or any one else how good I am. This is demonstrated each time I walk on the field by the way I dress, my mannerism, attitude, hustle and application of the rules.

If you believe that the "MACHO OFFICIATING ATTITUDE" works for you, by all means, Go For It.

Did you ever hear the story about the young and old Bull up on the mountain over looking all the hefers?

NEVER MIND, you probably wouldn't get anyway.

There is a tape the you can buy from Gerry Davis Sports, that has a situation on the tape were in a Minor League game, and player draws a line in the sand after a called pitch. The umpire stops the game or calls time, comes from behind the plate and tells the catcher, "I guess that is were the new strike zone is." He says it loud enough so everyone can hear him. And then next pitch that is unhittable, he calls him out I believe. And the actual umpire that made the call was giving commentary on why he handled it that way and was discussing it with a former MLB Manager and what was right or wrong about his actions.

So if you feel that you only have one option, good for you. I am just saying for me it is not "automatic." I do not need to eject anyone to make a point. I think the better umpires realize that as well.

Peace

I have a wavering opinion
 

I believe it matters who and how long they have been umpiring in the area. A newer official needs to and in my opinion must toss the guy. He needs to gain a rep as someone who will not take crap or that is all he will get. But after a little while the ump can now relax and the players and coaches will take care of problems and the games is much easier. I'll give an example.


For two years I would toss people a little quicker than most , i would be more strick with certain rules that others let slide and I took no guff. I realized my no nonsense rep was solidified in the start of the third season doing a midget (16-19yr olds) game. I had ump'd these kids a number of times, but they had a new pitcher. In the first inning after a high pitch was not called a strike (I do have a low zone) as the pitcher wanted he slammed his glove on his knee and turn around and swore, he was mad at the call, but I truly didn't care, however three yes three of the infielders (C, 1B and SS) all called time together and went to the pitcher and told him to shut-up or he wouldn't be playing long. The C then appologized to me on the return trip and said it wouuld not happen again. That year I didn't toss a single kid from that team, where the two previous years it was probably 3-7 a season got the boot. so it is a senario thing, not quite cut and dried. One person is not going to ruin an age old rep. but could give you one if your just starting out.

I now have the ability to laugh at the player who draws the line in the sand and complains about the zone a little. He know's I have a line and is in general not willing to pursue things very far in fear of it. That line has grown farther and farther away now, but they don't realize it. I still hear at games, "watch your mouth, this guy will throw you." (I threw 2 players last year, real tough choices too, 1 kid stood on second base and at the top of his lungs told the opposition to F%%% off - and the other threw a total hissy fit over a strike-out and threw his helmet and bat and screamed "You're un-F%%%ing- believable. That was it.)

The good officials already have shown they are in charge by what they do not have to say, or the way they might say certain things and get respect off the bat, before the game even starts. You can call it a presence, or demenor and professional look. Whatever it is, I do not have to spend my time letting anyone know I am in charge when I umpire or officiate. I have accomplished that before the game even starts.

Peace

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

I am just saying for me it is not "automatic." I do not need to eject anyone to make a point. I think the better umpires realize that as well.

-----------------------------

Now Mr. Rutledge, if you are going to use a vidoe as evidence, tell the WHOLE STORY.

First, in the video,"Handle It!", the Minor League umpire, Al Kaplin tells former MLB manager Terry Colins and us all that , "This is not the way you should handle this in amateur games."

He goes on to say that in Professional games, the player, the coach, everyone involved knows WHY the FYC was made.

In our universe, some punk kid will go off on you and now you will also have the coach on you to. Now you have two ejections instead of the automatic felony ejection.

Now, I am not going to sit back and intimate that I am a "better umpire," as you have. Nor will I post me "resume." All I will tell you is that I have worked multiple National events and a good friend of mine who was a crew chief in AAA also tosses EVERYTIME. I think that we both are "pretty good umpires". Obviously my friend is probably better than I.

What I also know is that any time I have had to clean up after spineless jellyfish, it wasn't pleasant.

Finally, exactly what "point" am I making in NOT ejecting the batter who has shown complete disrespect and told everyone how bad the call was?" Would you have as much restaint had he yelled, "That was a foot f***ing outside you idiot!" In my world they are equal.

Re: I have a wavering opinion
 

You are correct - to a point. I rarely need to throw guys out now. After many years, I don't get much grief locally.

However, FELONIES shuch as this need to be dealt with. What happens when the "new" umpire the next day has teh same player you allowed to stay around draw a line on him? He now not only has to eject, but is goiong to get grief because the "veteran" umpire yesterday didn't toss. You have done your junior umpire a disservice. Lead by example and the young guy probably doesn't have to deal with him tomorrow.

BTW, I haven't had anyone who "knows" me draw a line on me in four years. They KNOW it is an automatic ejection.

I don't see why tossing someone for such an offense is "macho"? I don't yell, scream, or anything, just quick flick of the wirst and the offender is gone.

I just can't see how keeping this guy in the game does anything but cause further grief.

What happens next inning when the OTHER team does it?

Yeah, I mean there is no emotion to it. He's committed an act that gets him the rest of the game off. Bring me a sub. An ejection is not a failure on the umpire's part if the act deserved an ejection.

Well when I saw this video, it was at an Association meeting (we own these tapes), there was a D1 Umpire in the room as well as someone that works Minor League ball. There was an interesting conversation, which not everyone agreed with how to handle it or what was the exact way to handle it. And our current President was asked this year (who is a D1/minor league umpire) and he did not suggest that it was an "automatic" ejection. So let us understand that every situation is different and everyone handles this in their own way. I agree that you do not allow this to go one without addressing it, but you sure do not let it go. And letting it go does not mean you are not ejecting someone.

I have talked to many umpires and many have had different opinions on what you do and what you do not do.

So if it makes you maintain your respect by ejecting someone, more power to ya. But I do not feel this is "automatic" and I can send a bigger message by doing other things. Sorry you feel like you have no choice. ;)

I consider a player yelling at me much different than something no one might see by me and a couple people. Sorry, I do not look at it the same.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Apr 24th, 2004 at 03:29 PM]

Macho has nothing to do with it. Drawing a line in the sand is:

1. Arguing balls and strikes...prohibited by rule.
2. Showing up the umpire to all assembled.
3. Unsportsmanlike behavior.

Three strikes: He's out of here. And no one, not even his coach, will give you grief over it.

i agree with garth 100%. theres nothing "macho" to it.

The "spoken" line
 

Funny this topic should come up. A few weeks ago I had a game where a pitch came in just above the knees and half on the outside edge of the plate. Being the observant umpire I am, I called a strike.

The kid puts a foot out of the box and looks at his coach. His coach gives him that "Where was it?" look.
I'm just thinking to myself 'tell the truth, kid, don't get stupid." He was the offensive team's catcher, so he knows how to size up a pitch.
"It was low and off the plate, coach." The coach tells him it's okay, he didn't want that one anyway. Oh... That dumb kid.

The next pitch comes in low and off the plate. I call a strike. Isn't that where I called the last one? I gotta be consistent, right? The kid looks at me. I just give him a nod and smile. He got the point and hit a nice Texas-Leaguer on the next pitch.

Funny thing was that he was a pleasure to have behind the plate.

-Craig

Obviously, there are some here who consider drawing a line a felony, and some consider it a misdemeanor. I stated my view earlier so I will not repeat.

Yes, everybody's got an opinion, but not all opinions are equal. :)

The higher the level of baseball, and the higher quality of training an umpire gets, the more universal the understanding is that drawing a line on an umpire is a felony deserving of summary ejection. The pro schools teach it, the NCAA clinics teach it, most FED training teaches it, some but not all youth organizations teach it.

I've had lines drawn on me 3 times. Once in a competitive adult league; I tossed him with no fanfare and virtually no comment from anyone including the disgruntled batter. Once in a recreational adolescent league - I warned him to erase the line, he drew another one, I laughed and said OK, play, then rung him up on strike 3 on a high and away pitch. He got the message, but I had to toss his coach in the ensuing argument.

The third time as the batter started to draw the line I told him "drawing a line on an umpire is an automatic ejection - erase that line or you're done." He apologized, erased the line, and stayed in the game.

I consider the 2nd example the worst of the decisions I made.

Re: Stuff
 

This post started over a situation that happened in low adult baseball, not LL. Why do you come here? You never have anything constructive to say.

Been There , Done that. If it works for you go For it

Re: Stuff
 

What does this have to do with the post?

You must have been a late bloomer? Did not reach puberty until you were in your 20s I see?


Some us are tired of you old fat farts that cannot run two feet behind the plate. Then complain when the coaches give you attitude. Maybe there is a reason players are drawing a line in your games. Might have some underlining meaning you are not paying attention to. Oh well, there are a lot of guys like you that are still holding on to your past. ;)

I did not realize anyone was talking about Little League. But then again, what every makes you feel better. ;)

Peace

Re: Re: Hahahahaha,
 

For those who give credence to authoritative references, this specific issue is addressed in the MLB Umpire Manual, to-wit:

Actions by players specifically intended to ridicule an umpire are grounds for ejection. Examples include drawing a line in the dirt to demonstrate location of a pitch or leaving equipment at the plate after striking out with less than two outs.

Re: Re: Re: Hahahahaha,
 

That is great, but NCAA or FED or even LL is not Major League baseball. This would be like me comparing what they do in the NBA and saying that all officials at levels not in the NBA should apply those rules.

I know a lot of guys that go to pro school and cannot umpire with any consistency or lose respect at the HS level. And part of the reason is because they try to take that "pro mentality" to a level that no one cares about. And I know that that mentality hurts many umpires at the NCAA and FED level.

Peace

Re: Rut, Rut, Rut
 

Well considering that what I have accomplished in all those sports in a short period of time, I will take that as speaking for itself. I think that speaks more than what some "internet officials" think of me on a discussion board.

See the reality is that "I know who I am." And so do those that have worked with me. One of the reasons I do not need to puff out my chest on an discussion board to accomplish anything. Hey, but we all cannot be like you. ;)

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Hahahahaha,
 

The MLB Umpire Manual is written for major league umpires, not LL umpires, low adult league umpires, etc. What is written don't make it right for all levels...

Keep them coming.
 

Then go away. Because fat ***, old umpires like yourself, just make me laugh.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Re: Hahahahaha,
 

Like I said, it was posted for those who give credence to authoritative references.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think."

Re: Hahahahaha,
 

I have never officated a LL game, but I would not belittle one who has, and I work many games with players who shave. What that has to do with anything, I don't know. You obviously have no respect for anyone doing small ball, and very little respect for your peers, as evidenced by your posts herein. Of course you have few peers, the only ones you have respect for are the ones that agree with you, and I am not among your group, and I can live with that, easily.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hahahahaha,
 

Do you have any direct references from the NCAA or National Federation on this issue?

Peace

Re: DG
 

Just shows again that you are dumber than a box of rocks. Most LL's I am aware of pay umpires to work. But then again, that is why you are who you are.

Stick to that fantasy of a life you seem to want to convince us you lead.

Peace

OK. Time to quit throwing S**t. Here is the deal. You can choose to let it go, or you can do something about it. If you are seeing it at the LL levels, it is because they have seen it on TV, and on TV the guy was done. He his showing you up, arguing balls and strikes, and most of all, going against the integrity of the game. You must do something about it.

As far as letting the guy erase the line, so you let him show you up, and then let him take it back. Would you let a guy tell you that you are horses**t, and then if he apologized, let him stay? Just curious, becuase I see those as two in the same.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hahahahaha,
 

The NCAA Instructions to Umpires are similar to the guidelines given in the MLB Umpire Manual, but do not specifically address drawing a line. The FED casebook and rulebook refer only in general terms to ejections for unsportsmanlike conduct.

I can confidently confirm that the general understanding that drawing a line on an umpire is a no brainer ejection is shared at the highest levels of the NCAA's umpire hierarchy, as well as at reasonably high levels of the NFHS umpiring administration. This is based on personal, non-published conversations I have had with these individuals, both via email and in face to face visits over hot wings and beers, and you are, of course, free to give it as much or as little credence as you deem appropriate.

You can judge my credibility by what I've posted, just as I've formed a judgment and perception of your own game management skills based on your posts.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hahahahaha,
 

Mr. Rutledge:

It is not in writing - yet, however in the Great White North (Canada), the instructions to the umpires at the National tournaments last year was that this was to be an automatic ejection and any other similar foolishness was to also be dealt with.

This was to be so at all levels, regardless of the "importatnce" of the game, the inning, the score, anything.

Now, this isn't Pro, NCAA or FED, but for what it is worth, it is the "best" amateurs from the various divisions from across the country with usually the "best" umpires from the areas as well.

agendas
 

Guys:

I posted a game management situation because those are what separate the quality of umpires.

We have differing opinions on this. I will continue to argue my point and teach all umpires at every level this is a felony.

What amazes me as I look at the posts is how did TEE become part of this discussion? He has posted nowhere in this thread, yet his "quotes" are everwhere?

Forums like this should be used to help teach and inform. To post "quotes" from other discussions is hijacking a conversation for your own purpose.

I will stand behind my decision to eject.

To Dave and NSump.
 

To both of you I understand where you are coming from. But I am telling you that umpires who I know personally, have talked to about many things, do not agree with your handling of this. Not to say that an ejection is never in order, but I have had umpires tell me of things they did and there was no ejection involved. And I am not just talking about some LL umpire or someone doing the lowest of levels of HS ball making those claims. I am talking about NCAA and Minor League guys and individuals that have attended pro school. And these conversations have been in meetings and at the bar or resturant afterwards. So it is clear that many handle this in differnent ways and I really do not see what is wrong with that? And I have never taken and dispute over balls and strikes as "automatic" either. I usually give them a chance to understand what they are doing and if they want to press forward, then they have hung themselves. Just my style and the way I do business. And the fact that you cannot show me any evidence directly from the NCAA or FED, tells me a lot. That tells me that they do not use the mentality that the pro game uses for their game. And just because we can come up with some instructors that say to do one thing at the lower levels, does not mean that there is agreement. Because for the guys that have never been pro umpires or ever attended pro school, they are not going to adopt something that automatically because one person tells them. It would help if those bodies put it in writing if that is what they want.

Peace

Re: agendas
 

Tee did what he always does. Erases his posts to try to hide the evidence. I do not have a hard on for TEE in any way to go some other post and bring it to this discussion. If he fell off the face of the earth, I would not notice. Not only is he an insiginificant figure in my umpiring experience, I am sure he is that way to many others as well.

I agree, but no one hijacked anything. He just erased his posts, or someone else did it. Probably because he did not at all stick to the discussion and came here name calling and trying to bittle people, like he does.

And you have every right to. I am not here to change your mind. I am here to have a discussion which has been interesting and enlightening on many levels. It is just sad that folks cannot have different opinions and not realize that it is not about only their opinion. I do not think the original question was asked without some understanding there their are different views on what to do. I am sure in the mind of the poster that asked the question, there was some doubt because of discussions he has had or seen before.

Peace

Re: Re: agendas
 

I didn't know they were there originally. Regardless, everything else I said remains.

Every game is important
 

Somebody, somewhere posted the following:

"I give NO VALUE to guys who work Little League . . . it is not real baseball."

It's not in this thread originally, but the fact of the matter remains: This post has become one about drawing a line in the dirt to personal attacks about how different umpires view justice and what levels of baseball are "real."

For anybody who believes that Little League ball or anything else with unskilled and unknowledgable players is not REAL baseball, I want you to go out to the field and gather the kids around you. Make sure you're wearing your umpire uniform. ;o) Next, I want you to inform the kids they are not playing real baseball and that they are not important. You will be the most dispicable, crude, and downright lowliest person I've ever had the displeasure to come in contact with.

ANY game played is ALWAYS an important game to everybody involved: the players, coaches, and the parents. Who cares if they aren't capable of making extravagant diving catches or catching the ball and making tags with stunning accuracy. Who cares if you've got to expand your strike zone because the kids are learning how to pitch. It's baseball, and the kids love it. They want to be there, and they want to have fun. They like playing their game, and they certainly wouldn't appreciate having somebody like you tell them that they're wasting their time.

To anybody that holds that view of Little League: you are pathetic. I certainly hope you never come in contact with children.

-Craig

Re: Every game is important
 

I work LL, mostly at tournament time, but I don't begrudge anyone who feels that way about LL. Tee speaks his mind and you know what he thinks.

Why is being honest "pathetic?" Rest assured, Tee will never work LL, so why do you care?

--Rich

Re: Re: Every game is important
 

I also work Little League, and I'll go even further than Rich to endorse much (but not all) of what Tee says. Little League (and other youth league programs) are in many real and significant ways NOT "real baseball," and it is important that everyone understand and respect the distinctions. Certainly Tee is more dismissive and disparaging of those who umpire the games played by prepubescents than I am, but he is articulating a frustration that exists with legitimacy, especially given the appearance of "equal footing" that message boards such as this one give to all points of view.

This thread has been an excellent example of how difficult real, enlightening dialogue can be between veteran umpires with substantive contributions to make on the craft of umpiring and rookie "true believers" full of piss and vinegar and egos of their own.

At least the moderators/censors appear to have taken the weekend off and allowed the fur to fly. That's been entertaining.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Hahahahaha,
 

The MLB Umpire Manual is written for major league umpires, not LL umpires, low adult league umpires, etc. What is written don't make it right for all levels... [/B][/QUOTE]

How ridiculous.


Okay, the OBR is written for adult men playing MLB. It is not, nor was it ever written for youth play. So does that mean that it shouldn't be used for levels other than MLB? Be your rationale, yes; but by all that makes sense, Of course not.

As in many activities, the pro levels set standards that carry over into the amateur levels. This is one of them.

Re: Re: DG
 

Really? According to Andy Konyar tLL's national umpire coordinator, it is LL's national policy to not pay umpires. All adults who work with Little League: coaches, board members, umpires, etc. are supposed to be volunteers.

Re: Re: Re: DG
 

I do not give a crap what it is suppose to be, the reality is that many "local associations" pay the umpires that decide to do it.

In the town where I began umpiring, the local Park District had an Umpire group. And the Umpire group ran was ahead of all the umpires that worked on any of the Park District Fields. And no one did it for free. If you worked LL or Pony or Legion, you got paid for it. And the people that assigned you, were working thru the Park District.

I do not care what it is suppose to be, but many are paid. If they did not pay, umpires would go other places and make sure they are paid.

Peace

Part One

In my capacity as Umpire-in-Chief for several Youth Leagues (Shary Plantation USSA, McAllen Pony, Weslaco Little League) I've assigned myself to many games with untrained umpires as partners. I've worked games from 12 and under (60 feet) to NCAA and MSBL games (90 feet).

Baseball is baseball.

They still have to pitch, hit, run, pick it up, and throw 'em out.

But I haven't called a major/minor Little League game (Tee, that's where the runners can't leave their bases until the pitch reaches the plate) in 40 years. If I live another 40 years, I'll still be able to make that statement.

The problem with many "veteran" umpires is they lump all Youth baseball into one category, "Little League," the game they see at the World Series. But that "game" is just a small part of the larger Youth baseball program. It gets so much attention because they've sold their product better than anyone else.

Last night I umpired a double header in Junior League: 90-foot bases, ages 13/14. Tee, you'd find it "interesting": Coaches may not warm up pitchers on or off the field; one adult coach must remain in the dugout at all times; two coaches must be in the coaching boxes, but one may be a player if the team is short an adult; the adults may not take their positions in the boxes until the pitcher/catcher combination has concluded the warm-up tosses; there's a designated runner who might, for example, run for the fat first baseman.

Etc.

But the rule book is based on the OBR. The Little League book for divisions of players aged 13 through whatever is the closest book anywhere to the old OBR we grew up with.

I've always thought Tee's antipathy to "Little League" results from the size of the field and the lack of training exhibited by the umpires one sees on TV. I've always wished I could assign him to a Junior League game with one of my trainees as his partner. I believe I'd have a convert, especially when he saw how much he was getting paid for a 1:45 minute time-limit game.

Part Two

Despite what Tee says, there is no editor of this site. The Forum is an independent part of Right Sports, Inc., not connected in any way with Officiating.com. I do not have editing rights on "this" site.

Part Three

I've saved the inciting topic for last: "Drawing a line in the sand." If you're familiar with Texas history, you know that Col. William B. Travis drew a line at the Alamo. Those who would stay and fight should cross the line. Everyone walked across, so they say, except Jim Bowie: He was carried across.

The line drawn by a batter showing how far he believed the last pitch was off the plate is not so famous -- except on the Internet Message Boards.

(1) Most trained umpires eject for that "offense."
(2) Some don't, preferring to enforce discipline with an FYC.
(3) Some do nothing by rote, simply treating each incident on its own merit.

I teach that (3) is the proper response, but I've use each one on occasion.

A college pitcher/DH once draw a line. He struck out on the next two pitches without ever moving his bat. As he walked away, he said softly: "Ok, smart ***, I hear you talking." I never again had trouble with him. (2)

In a Pony League tournament, the catcher for Team Blue was batting. I called a pitch on the outside corner (say a ball and half off the black). He drew the line, one ball farther off the plate than it was. "Time!" I screamed and went around to sweep the plate. "Listen," I said to the catcher for Team Red, "Take your finger and draw the line that shows where that pitch was." He did. "Now," I said to the batter, "his line was closer to the plate than your line, wasn't it?" He grinned: "Ok, I guess we both missed it." Not a peep from his entire team for the remainder of the tournament. (3)

At the championship game of the National Baseball Congress Texas State Tournament in 1994, the DH for Team Blue was a hotshot player from Texas University. He took a pitch he didn't like and drew a line. He didn't like having to leave the ball park about one minute later. The ejection came about two seconds after his bat left the dirt. Everybody in the county heard "You're outta here!" His teammates didn't like what happened, but they were convinced they had to behave. (1)

You can't stuff every foot into a size nine shoe.

I don't think those of us who feel that drawing a line is a major felony are doing that. It all depends on what you consider a foot.

I'm only putting one foot in the size nine shoe, and that's the size nine foot of drawing a line in the sand.

You seem to be preoccupied as to who the foot belongs to, or what his intent was, not it's size.

I don't care who it belongs to. I believe in equal treatment for equal offenses. !4 year old, 20 year old, 35 year old...no matter; black, white, brown, red, green...no matter; team blue, team red, yellow dog democrat...no matter.

I don't care what his intent was, kidding, serious, humorous, pissed, arrogant, ignorant...no matter.

Draw a line, do the time.

Without hesitation or ceremony I would have given this guy and "E" ticket for the ride to the parking lot.

[Edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. on Apr 25th, 2004 at 07:30 PM]

JRut: <B>"I do not give a crap what it is suppose to be...</b>

I've noticed that.

It does not matter whether the age level is adult or youth, this is an automatic ejection. The batter is trying to make a horse's rearend out of the PU. I can assure, that if either of our two son's pulled a stunt like this batter, my wife and I would have yanked our son out of the batter's box before the PU could finish giving him the boot. Fortunately, our son's now this and they know that they are not to even look cross-eyed at a sports official.

As I stated earlier this month in a basketball thread, civility in society (as well as sportsmanship) has been declining over the last fifteen years, and to condone behavior of the batter as described in the original post, is shear nonsense. The batter's conduct cannot be rationalized in anyway possible.

Do not try to bring this into a general discussion about other things.

If I was not doing things that were not only endorsed, but expected by the folks that make major decisions, then I would not be working. Plain and simple. Which is why I have accomplished the things I have. ;)

Peace

BRAVO. You sir "get it"

If you let him draw the line, what next? Let him curse a blue streak?

why not let him take a swing at you?

Again, Bravo. Bowling Green is in good hands.

I am truly amazed at the general tenor of this thread. Even the law realizes that one size does not fit all. (Switching perhaps from the shoe to a hat metaphor.)

One person kills another. In Texas the range of penalty is from two years to death. Similarly, whatever anyone claims to believe, no good umpire can use a rigid game control philosophy and trust it to handle every situation.

And it is the umpire's duty to enforce the rules of the organization that hires him and ensure that no team gains an advantage not intended by the rules. It is not our job to promote <i>our</i> definition of civility.

Whatever you say Mark. I still disagree with you. But what else is new. ;)

I agree that sportsmanship is on the decline, but it is not because someone draws a line or not. And I do not know many situations in basketball where all officials handle a situation in "one voice" not matter what. The beauty of baskeball officiating, is that many philosophies are embraced and considered.

No one is rationalizing anything. Many of us are just disagreeing on how it is handled. You eject them on the spot, I call strikes that he can see. And I feel I get the coach on my side and you eject and have the possiblity that a coach will not understand your rational, many because you are using a standard that does not apply at all levels (the Major League one ;)) And when I hear guys say there is only "one way to...." I tend to be very skeptical of what comes next.

Again, you do not have to agree. I will do what I feel is best and has worked for me. I have never gotten any complaints from anyone.

Peace

And Carl, you are wrong. To teach a NEW UMPIRE to not eject is just plain stupid.

NEW umpires don't have the experience to learn complex game management tools that you are teaching. Just keep ejecting and they will stop drawing the line. After time, they will learn game management and these incidents will stop.

I bet you a "dollar to a penny" that after a month nobody in McAllen would draw a line on me.

If you have officiated at all, this statement is just pure rubbish. Regardless of how you deal with this, you will get complaints.

Please tell me you are kidding?

So drawing a line means that they will not swing at you first? So if you allow them to draw a line in the sand then that means they will never curse you out because you made a call they did not like?

Interesting take. I will have to remember that next time. :rolleyes:

Peace

Carl:

You must be watching the Yankees too much lately, you're in a slump. That's 0 for 2 tonight.

I ABSOLUTELY is our job to "promote" our definition of civility. We do it every night and that is what is causing the problem. We each have our own definition of what should happen. Hell, you gave no less than 3 choices.

The problem occurs when you choose #3, keep him in the game and the next night I boot himout and he whines that, "Hey Carl didn't boot me out. At least he knew what he was doing. F***ing rookies!"

Gee Carl, your solution helped me a lot the next night. Not only did it create an argument, I have also been pegged as a dolt becasue the "Big Dog" did something different.

As leaders in an association, we need to lead by example. Why not stop giving the young guys multiple choices and give them a tool that will work and stop it from happening over and over.

With that attitude you wouldn't last a week.

I teach that the game is controlled through the coach, not through kids.

I did not say I have never gotten complaints about absolutely anything. I said I have never gotten complaints about dealing with a player the way I choose to. The only folks that are trying to tell me I was wrong, are folks that have never seen me umpire a single game.

So if a coach makes a comment about a single pitch (which they do), do you throw them out of the game on the spot, not discussion or warning ever? Because if I am listening to your comment correctly, that is the way all "arguing or debating of balls and strikes" should be handled? I have never read anyone saying they have a "zero tolerance" for that. But then when a kid does one thing, the "only option" is to eject that kid, no words, no comments, just eject?

You have a right to that opinion, I just do not agree with it. But then again, I have never had anyone tell me I was wrong when I did not eject a kid for this and "sent a message" my way. But I guess I should forget all those comments and take your word. :rolleyes:

Peace

Let me go S L O W L Y so you understand.

Players and coaches are like kids. They will test you to see how far they can go.

If you let them draw the line, what will they do next? If you handle the "little" incidents, the big ones usually don't happen.

Well Carl, it has served me well enough to last 23 years here in Nova Scotia. Heck, even got me to 10 Nationals. Golly, you were even going to invite me to work the NBC regionals in Texas.

In fact, my whole philosophy is outlined in my five part series, The Thumb http://baseball.officiating.com/x/article/2440

Have a lovely evening.

Blaine Gallant, AKA NSump

AMEN!
 

I may not commit myself to saying this is an automatic ejection everytime - I myself may choose some other way to teach a little sportsmanship. BUT I WOULDN'T OBJECT OF ANY UMPIRE THAT FEELS IMMEDIATE EJECTION IS THE APPROPRIATE PENALTY. Ejection is absolutely appropriate.

Depending upon what my mood is and how the game is going, who the coach is, etc. I may choose some other way to correct this unacceptable behavior. I feel each situation warrants its own response.

This action will not go unnoticed nor unpunished. Expanding the zone... probably not - that's my integrity. I don't know that the pitcher is going to throw out there now. I do think that hoping that the pitcher will throw outside and that I will call them strikes is the wrong approach - that action leaves the possibility that the batter will go unpunished - next pitch might be down the tube for a homerun.

To reinforce Mark, it is sad that officials are put into a position where they need to teach sportsmanship. That is the coach's job... and yes historically (there are exceptions, and Bobby Knight isn't one of them) they seem to be doing a poorer and poorer job. Our society is becoming very tolerant of disrespect. It is sad, sad, sad. Kids today truthfully do have No Fear. Punishment from parents and coaches is virtually nonexistent; our legal system has continuously placed blame and punishment on the wrong parties.

Back to the topic at hand...

How obvious was his scratch in the dirt? I might tell the batter to go to his coach. Tell your coach what you just did. And then tell him I want a substitute for you. Tell the substitute what you did too. You've got 20 seconds hurry up. Same result but not as emotional and not as showboat/retaliatory. My response should be similar to the tone of the original act.

Not to change the subject but most ejections I've seen or enforced myself were following an action where a player was called out. In this situation, is the ejection also an out or do you just get a new batter to assume the existing count?

"Handle."
 

Thank you very much on telling me what to do. I will remember that in my next basketball game or football game as well. Because I find it interesting that baseball umpires tend to be the most inflexible of all the sports I do. You guys come up with customs and rituals like you are in a cult. And get upset when folks handle things differently than you.

I never said not to handle the situation, I just feel that "ejection" is not the only way to handle it. And if it is, then you do what you have to do. But I think there are other ways to "handle" the situation. Ejection for me is a last resort and saved for the most egregious offenses.

So you eject any coach, not matter what when they ask you about a pitch? No matter what tone they come to you? Not matter what words they use? Why is that different than drawing a line in the sand?

Peace

Re: AMEN!
 

No, middle of the count, lets make it 2-1. New batter, same count.

Hey I've been around a lot of years. I have tried your method, the FYC and just plain giving the batter sh!t. In the long run, the ejection works the best.

I did a series a few years back on the paid portion of the site about this same scenario. I asked umpires, players and coaches about the same situation and how to handle it. The only ones who ALL said it was an automatic ejction? The PLAYERS.

The umpiers said it depended on the situaion (similar to here). The coach said dump a rookie but cut the veteran some slack and just tear a strip off of him. But the PLAYERS said dump him. Actually, one pitcher said, FYC him the next pitch, then dump him - but pitchers always want it all!!

Blaine

Re: Re: AMEN!
 

I will remember to poll the players the next time I call a pitch. ;)

Peace

Re:
 

First, I have worked basketball and hockey and softball, so I too have worked many sports.

The DIFFERENCE is that in basketball you have a technical foul, in hockey an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty, soccer has the yellow card. You have many different tools to use.

Also, coaches are not ALLOWED on the field/ice.

But, these sports have felonies too. A coach throws a water bottle on the ice - done. A coach throws a basketball on the court - done.

As far as the coach barking from the dugout, I deal with it. The difference is that often what is said is not heard by many in the stands. If the remark is loud and he is cursing, he may have a shower coming quickly.

So, generally speaking, I deal with verbal remarks differently than I do visual ones. When someone is showing everyone what an a** I am, he is done. If someone is yelling loud enough for everyone to hear, he is done. If he is yelling and it is between me an him, he often stays, unless he gets personal, which is another "felony" He can tell me to my face that the call was horsesh*t, but as soon as he says that *I* am horsesh*t, then he is done.

BTW, do you keep the guy in the game who tells you that "you are horsesh*t" and only you hear him?

Blaine

Re: Re: Re: AMEN!
 

But this is where your scince is wrong. Your will get a split decision 50/50.

In my case both the batters and the pitchers said dump him! You call basketball, so you KNOW that in the post, we allow the PLAYERS to determine jsut how much to let go before "clamping down." If you don't let them play, or let too much go, they will let you know. No different here. The players have told me what they expect.

This post has reached 5 pages, and going nowhere. Let's end it, and go on to something more interesting...

1. I should know better than to argue with an expert, but, what the hell....

Carl, you keep trying to make this a general offense, it is not. It is very specific. Change your example to the premeditated, well planned and executed, cold blooded killing of a police officer. Trust me, even in Texas that will draw the same penalty every time.

Drawing a line...ejection, everytime.

2. This change of heart, or the acquisition of one,that you have experienced is hard to adjust to. Your recent posts are 180 degrees from the many on related topics I have on file. Maybe it's just the difference in audience.

3. Upon further reflection, your inconsistent, "guess what's going to happen this time" method may have merit. Pschologists have shown that while inconsistent negative reinforcement in lab rats may not bring about desired behavioral changes as quickly as consistent negative reinforcement, it does mess up their little brains causing symptoms similar to those of mental break downs and paranoia. Maybe it will do the same to diamond rats. ;)

Yeah...something like catch and carry.

Get off my case on catch and carry. I understand what the poster was asking now, and I did not in the beginning. This is a value to reading these posts, unlike the no value I am getting from reading about the the line in the sand...

Re: Re:
 

You are right in basketball I might have a T at my disposal, but it does not mean it is the only thing I can use.

And I know many football officials that give a coach and opportunity to get off the field before they take action. And I definitely know basketball officials that allow a coach to get back into the coaching box and they tend to get a message.

Felonies are different based on level and area you work. I am just suggesting that everyone does not see this as a felony. And those that do not, if you just eject a player over this, you might have to eject more than that player. So you better be clear as to what is acceptable in the area you live. I know umpires that would think you have no "conflict resolution skills" if this is the ONLY OPTION in your bag of tricks.

But why is coach "showing you up" about balls and strikes, which you claim is so much an offense (it is but there is context in this discussion) and a kid drawing a line is another? If one is bad and the other is the same thing, why not eject them all for even daring to question you on this topic? I guess I am not understanding the hypocracy in your argument.

I had one confrontation like this and not a single person knew the batter did anything and no one knew that I struck his behind out on a pitch that was outside. The situation was dealt with and the kid got the point. It did not happen again and I got my point across.

This is not the same thing. If I write a report on an ejection and I quote those words, no one misunderstands my actions. If I eject a kid for drawing a line in the sand, I have to hope they understand all the idiocracies of baseball history, what the pros think about it, what they might have heard from NCAA instructors and take my word for it that this was "showing the umpire up." I can always back up the first one.

Peace

DG:

Actually this post has gone far beyond its original intent. It has opened the door to look inside how we manage real situations.

Why has it gone 5 pages? GAME MANAGEMENT. That's why.

Game management is something you cannot learn in a classroom. You can only learn it on the field. The goal, or what should be the goal, of these forums is to increase the knowledge of those who use it and be a better official from them.

This thread is far more important thatn catch and carry, balks or any other inane subject about rules. This is what separates umpires.

So, while you can't teach game management, you can give the new umpire some tools and some guidance. Similar to teaching specific mechanics and positioning, you give the rookie umpire some specific guidance to help him "get through" the early years and allow him to establish himself. IMHO, being "assertive" or a "red ***" early in your umpiring "career" will benefit you.

So, I will teach them to use the ejection as a tool to keep control. As they mature as umpires, they will need to use that tool less and less for two reasons. One, they will be better umpires. But more importantly, they will have established themselves as no-nonsense umpires. Here, I rarely eject any more. It is not that I have changed my "standards", but rather my reputation remains. Many players still think I "throw a lot of guys out."

That deterant has saved me a lot of grief lately.

Blaine











;

Blaine: I see you've reverted to your old self, ignoring emails and calling people "stupid" who disagree with you. (grin)

You were responsible for my being a clinician in Nova Scotia on the Victoria Day weekend. You were in my clinic. Therefore, my philosophy of game control is well known to you: Control the coach (with as much redass as you think necessary), and you won't have trouble with the players.

You did not reach the heights you did by being redass. You got there because you call good. At the nationals, coaches and players -- you told me -- are generally very well behaved.

Have a nice day. And stay out of Quebec City.

[Edited by Carl Childress on Apr 25th, 2004 at 11:05 PM]

As an experienced umpire, would you handle a situation differently if the participants weren't aware that you are a seasoned veteran?

As long as you umpire in the same region, where your reputation was established, that works fine. But what about umpires who travel to areas where nobody knows them, or they call a tournament game for an out-of-town team?

I help coach both a fastpitch softball team and a baseball team. Both teams do a significant amount of traveling. For the most part, I'm dealing with umpires I have no idea what kind of experience and reputation they have. I don't know if it's their FIRST or TENTH year as an umpire. I can pretty much guess by their style and demeanor, but that isn't always the best indicator. I've seen lazy veterans with poor mechanics and rookies who do just about everything right.

There is no way of knowing what to expect should you challenge their authority.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Apr 26th, 2004 at 01:07 AM]

After rereading Blaine's post, I fail to find anyplace where he refered to anyone who disagreed with him as "stupid."

Can we stick to what is really being posted?

No you didn't!!!
 

All the names you call me, the insults you try to give to people when the discussion is never about who is a "real" umpire and who does the things you like. And you want someone to stick to the what was posted?

You really are a piece of work.

Peace

Blaine: I see you've reverted to your old self, ignoring emails and calling people "stupid" who disagree with you. (grin) ....

Therefore, my philosophy of game control is well known to you: Control the coach (with as much redass as you think necessary), and you won't have trouble with the players.

You did not reach the heights you did by being redass. You got there because you call good. At the nationals, coaches and players -- you told me -- are generally very well behaved.

[Edited by Carl Childress on Apr 25th, 2004 at 11:05 PM] [/B][/QUOTE]

First Carl, I never called YOU stupid. I said to teach a new umpire three choices in this situation is stupid.

Second, the clinic here was for experienced umpires. Also, if the guy is drawing a line on me, his coach already has failed in his duty. I am moving to the dark side this year (doing some coaching). I guarantee the kids will know (and the parents will too) what is and isn't acceptable behavior. This will not happen on my watch.

Regardless on how "good" I call, being a redass at times is necessary. Often arguments are not as much about the call, but over frustration. Still, it needs to be dealt with. Heck, if arguments were only over bad calls, why would *I* need to eject! LOL

No difference. Same action, same response.

Generally, at National events, the players and teams are well behaved. BUT, last year, the heat must have gotten to the Men's teams in Windsor.

We had two situations that called for immediate action and both were met with ejection. They both happened to the crew I was with and *I* wasn't the ejector!

1. Bottom of 7th, relief pitcher in, his team up 2 runs no one on. The pitcher is being an a** and there has already been a "gathering" around the mound once. Pitcher is arrogant. He strikes out a batter for out two, raises his finger to say, "we're #1, and points to the player he just struck out." The team at bat wants to kill him.

So, PU could let this go (we have one out left) and hope we get out of there fast. BUT, he dumps him immediately.

In the ensuing discussion with the coaches, the message is sent - bullsh*t like that will always be met with an ejection.

2. Quarter-final game, I am on 3rd. I call a balk. Pitcher grumbles about getting a warning, yada, yada. Then boom, someone from their bench (1st base side)is tossed. Apparently, he voiced his displeasure about my call. U1 had the pleasure of the ejection. This was in inning #2.

Later that game we had lots of bangers, another balk and there was a real close call at 3rd in teh 2nd extra inning. Some grumbling, but nothing that would get them ejected. The standard had been set.

Why not re-read the <i>first</i> post of this thread?

Game management
 

Quote:

Originally posted by Carl Childress Therefore, my philosophy of game control is well known to you: Control the coach (with as much redass as you think necessary), and you won't have trouble with the players.

I agree with that philosophy, but it has to be established first. In our area most all of our officials use that same standard for the coaches, however, when we get "out of towners" like we are now with state playoffs going on, you run into all kinds.

However, as has been stated, it doesn't take long to let them know what will and won't be tolerated.

As far as locals this weekend, F2 batting and disagrees with called strike. Before PU could say anything, coach has called time and takes a long time to discuss with F2 how badly his behavior could affect the rest of the day. (their team was scheduled to play again that night in loser's bracket game with the same umpires)

A good coach (trained by the umpires) can go a long way in these type of game management situations.

Thanks
DAvid

Great Entertainment
 

Thanks guys for the entertainment and thanks to the censors for not touching this thread until I had a chance to read it. I got to delay my Monday morning workload a full hour while I caught up on a weekend's worth of flames.

I guess the censors were late coming to work today.

Peter

Then why did you previously say:
<i>So, I will teach them to use the ejection as a tool to keep control. <b>As they mature as umpires, they will need to use that tool less and less for two reasons.</b> One, they will be better umpires. But more importantly, <b>they will have established themselves as no-nonsense umpires.</b> Here, I rarely eject any more. It is not that I have changed my "standards", but rather my reputation remains. Many players still think I "throw a lot of guys out." </i>

If using "that tool" will be "less and less" because "they will have established themselves as no-nonsense umpires" - why even make this point if the participants will get the same response for the same action?

I guess what you're saying is that the players will SENSE that you are a no-nonsense umpire and won't even TRY such a thing - knowing full well that a no-nonsense umpire would never tolerate such a disrespectful act. Is that it?

I think each umpire needs to establish his own set of tolerances for such things based on his personal temperament. I think it's alright to say that you should ALWAYS eject an individual for a certain act, as long as you realize that that is YOUR personal criteria. Another umpire might have a completely different set of "rules" for ejections. What works for him may not work for you - mostly because you are two completely different people.

For instance, I will not always eject a player or coach for foul language. I'm sure some umpires have a standard rule for ejecting under those conditions. I wouldn't be too quick to fault such an umpire. Personally, I consider the age of the individual, the specific word that is used, and whether anybody else heard it.

A loud, "You're an a&%hole!" will always be an ejection. It's personal and particularly foul. He's gone!

A loud, "That's bullsh*t!", in an adult game, will probably not result in an ejection. The word isn't all that bad, especially in an all-adult context, nor is it personal.

A player's under-the-breath expletive is almost always ignored by me, especially if it is clearly done in spontaneous frustration. I'm not so sure I would allow a 9-yr-old to drop an F-bomb, however.

My point is that there is no reason for umpires to try to standardize their ejection criteria the same that we try to standardize our application of the rules. Everybody understands that ejection criteria is a personal thing for an umpire ... almost like his strikezone. Coaches, fans, and players tend to accept the fact that a particular umpire might have a wide strikezone, or, that he likes to call 'em low. Just the same, they will recognize that some umpires are much quicker to pull the trigger for certain infractions whereas others might show more tolerance.

The key is that each umpire should know himself. An umpire's demeanor, mannerisms, professionalism, and all the little things he does during a game (even his body language and the way he looks) tend to send a subliminal message.

There is something inexplicable about how one umpire's seemingly slack tolerance will NOT backfire on him whereas another umpire's tolerance for a similar act DOES.

Trying to establish Rules for Ejections is often a misguided effort.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Re: Great Entertainment
 

Not at all. The participants in the thread were mostly well behaved, so there was nothing to delete.

In Rec Adult ball I would keep him around but get my message out to him really clear. First call time and walk out and clean the plate right over the line. As I am going back behind the plate I will metion to him "He's lucky to stay around because he was nice enough to show me where the corner is". In adult ball he usually confirms that he is ready to go by continuing the conversation or just smiles and has a giggle.

In all other levels of ball he should just continue to draw the line all the way to the showers.

Rut,
 

"Tee did what he always does. Erases his posts to try to hide the evidence."

Rut, nothing that sinister in what I do.

After all I understand how the cut and copy portion of the site works. I have obviously read through all the posts and now that my information has been copied and inserted into other posts. Since I have been on this baseball portion of the board far longer than you I know exactly how it works.

On all the web based umpire boards I delete my posts after a certain period of for my own reasons.

Nothing I said has been hidden (the evidence) and the points that I have made will certainly be made again.

Rut, you have made it clear several times that baseball umpiring is your least favorite sport to officiate.

You have said the High School Season is just a fill in until summer basketball programs start.

I just think you like to argue and there is nothing wrong with that . . .

And I do agree with Rut on one key point he made somewhere in this thread . . . baseball umpires are like no other sport officials . . . we argue amoung ourselves over the strangest of issues.

Tee

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Draw your OWN line
 

If an adult player drew an inside line on me after calling a strike, I would ask for his bat and draw another line on the outside part of the plate (usually about 6 inches outside). Then I would hand the bat back, and tell him, "that's the zone now, so you'd better swing!"

Re: Draw your OWN line
 

That's tiresome. Why stoop to his level? Just eject him and maintain dignity and composure.

How could you possibly defend such an action with a supervisor or assignor?

--Rich

Re: Re: Draw your OWN line
 

I agree.

I attended Andy Fletcher's (MLB umpire) training camp here in Memphis.

He showed us a video of the time he ejected Benito Santiago (at the time, the catcher for the San Francisco Giants.) Andy was the PU. Santiago had been very unhappy with many of Andy's calls and was starting to express it. He had been chipping away at Andy for some time. A foul ball was hit and Andy tried to hand Santiago a new ball. Santiago ignored him. Andy refused to throw the ball to the pitcher himself, insisting that Santiago throw it. Santiago continued to ignore him. Finally, in aggravation, Andy went out in front of the plate, and threw the ball onto the plate and then promptly ejected Santiago. This game was nationally televised. The announcers were highly critical of Andy's actions, saying, "Nobody came out here this afternoon to watch Andy Fletcher umpire. They came to watch <i>Santiago</i> play. Unbelievable." And, in fact, Andy <i>did</i> get in trouble for his actions. Throwing the ball on the plate was uncalled for. Andy admitted he was wrong to do that.

I think <i>any</i> theatrics by an umpire are wrong. That would include the "drawing the line in the sand."

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Apr 26th, 2004 at 11:37 AM]

Re: Re: Draw your OWN line
 

Agreed Rich.

Also, why penalize the TEAM for an individual's screw up?

Toss the individual, get a new batter and THAT batter may get a hit. To INTENTIONALLY call a ball a strike is jsut wrong. Also, you have now taken an out away from the offense.

Many people here have indicated that I am inserting my personal feeling into this and that I am inflexible. Yes to both. However, the other "solutions" like this only serve to screw a team and ruin teh credibility of not on lythe umpire doing this, but the guys who follow and the umpire group as a whole.

Blaine

I'm sorry. I read your post to mean that Blaine had called people stupid who disagreed with him in this thread. I didn't think you were referring to the idiot that he watched IRL.

Re: Re: Re: Draw your OWN line
 

The FYC is also theater at its worst.

Had he ejected him without the fanfare and merely stated the ejection was over arguing balls/strikes, the attention would be on Santiego.

By inserting the theatrics, the offense which started this is lost. Its like punishing your 6 year old a hour after he breaks the sindow with the baseball. He doesn't understand why he is being punished.

Blaine

Re: Re: Re: Draw your OWN line
 

Did you see the game last year I believe it was. I cannot remember the umpire, but there was an argument with manager of the team in the field over balls and strikes. HP ump ejected him and the manager kicked dirt all over home plate, covering it. After the manager left, the HP ump refused to clean off home plate, the catcher asked for the ump brush and cleaned the plate himself. I thought it was hilarious at the time. Whaddya think?

Re: No you didn't!!!
 

What names have I called you Rut? In which posts? When I did tell someone they were not a real umpire? In which posts?

I fear you have me confused with someone else Rut, but if I've have behaved as badly as you say, show me and I will most definitely apologize.

Like you, Rut, I feel I have the right to express my opinion. I don't believe I've ever said that it is the only opinion. In fact, I remember posting to you that I really don't care how you handle a certain a situation, and that if it worked for you, fine.

Re: Re: Great Entertainment
 

So, am I to understand that statements such as:

fall under the radar these days?

Re: Re: Re: Great Entertainment
 

Gee, Dave, who would write such a post calling someone names like that? That wouldn't be my pal, Rut, would it? Nahhhh.