Peter, Peter, Peter....

[Rich]

Since I still have time remaining on the paid subscription I was forced to take last fall when I wanted to read the final versions of my articles, I decided to read the article Peter talked about here. And then, imagine this, I'm mentioned in the teaser of the article.

Well, I'll have nothing to do formally with the paid half of the site, so I'll just have to offer a rebuttal here, free of charge.

I'll quote a sentence or two, but if you want to read the original article you'll have to pay to become a member, I suppose.

The teaser was free, so I'll include that in its entirety:

Recently in the Forum, several lively discussions took place regarding umpire knowledge of score and innings. Two recognized big dogs, T. Alan Christensen and Rich Fronheiser, insist that the umpires have no need to know the score or the inning number. "Nonsense!" says Peter. Unfortunately, the threads were so "lively" that they were deleted. The reader won't have that worry here.

---------------
First of all, I'm honored that Peter considers me a big dog. I'm not sure if that's the case. I don't exactly live in a hotbed of college baseball, so half of my games are high school level and the rest are D-III and JuCo games. The closest D-I school to me is too far away for me to worry about. I don't have the time to drive more than 2 hours to get to a game, so I'll stick to my little pond.

Now, Peter starts by giving me a little dig:

"Rich Fronheiser agreed with him, and even bragged how recently, as the BU, he ran to his position in right field between innings after the game had already ended. He was completely unaware of the innings, he claimed, and so did not know the game was over. He was proud of himself."

Nope, I knew the innings. I was unaware of this conference using a 10 run rule. Every college and 95% of the high school fields around here keep very detailed scoreboards. I knew the score and I knew the time of the game. And nobody noticed that I turned right after the third out instead of coming in. This is much ado about nothing.

"I love showing up big dogs. In all of my discussions for the rest of this article, I am assuming NCAA nine inning baseball with only two umpires. Some of these things will not apply to youth baseball. If you umpire seven-inning baseball, where I say eighth or ninth inning, think sixth or seventh inning to apply it to what you do."

Nope, you love stretching the truth where it suits you. You aren't showing anyone up, Peter.

You know for a fact that this discussion started in a thread that involved umpires writing scores down on lineup cards or some other game card. We argued, quite correctly in my opinion, that this is completely unnecessary. You agree with that and then stretch your version of the truth to assume that we have no clue whatsoever of the score, innings, etc.

HOW MANY COLLEGE UMPIRES do you think are unaware of situations?

I *know* that the score is close or not close. I don't need to know the actual score in order to know how a game is progressing or what situations are likely to happen. I know when a pitch is coming for the head and I know when teams are likely to bunt, steal, etc.

Something you posted in this article exposes you as something less than the big dog you make yourself out to be, though:

"A high probability of a steal may require us to move up, either to get the angle on the pick off at first (from B), or get the angle on the steal of third (from C). Good umpires always know when the leadoff batter gets on base. In good baseball, he is generally the fastest player on the team (combined with a decent batting average). Rarely will a rabbit be batting in the bottom third of the batting order."

I'm not aware of the CCA manual advising umpires to move up and back in situations.

I'm also aware that these starting positions are just that -- starting positions. Umpires have brains and legs and if they are able to anticipate situations as you say, those umpires should be able to take those quick steps forward on the pickoff at first base without sacrificing the proper position on the field. They should also be able to use proper mechanics and peek over the right shoulder on each pitch with R2 from the C position to see if a runner is breaking for third.

I called 2 runners out stealing third on Friday, had a swipe tag when starting from C, and had many pickoff attempts at first base, yet I could've put 2 marks on the field (in the book B and C positions) and you can be certain I started each play from those positions when in the middle.

You sound like an umpire who can't get in position, can't adjust, and has to compensate for his weaknesses as an umpire. Like many of the poseur, wannabe big dogs I know.

--Rich

[David B]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

You know for a fact that this discussion started in a thread that involved umpires writing scores down on lineup cards or some other game card. We argued, quite correctly in my opinion, that this is completely unnecessary. You agree with that and then stretch your version of the truth to assume that we have no clue whatsoever of the score, innings, etc.

HOW MANY COLLEGE UMPIRES do you think are unaware of situations?

Rich makes a very good point. I had a very tense game last week 4-3 and I never realized it was the 7th inning. I thought we had one more inning to play.

No big deal, I just really don't pay a lot of attention to the score or the inning either.

What was important is what was going on inside the fence.

We have a scorekeeper to handle all of the other stuff.

I know its important to know and anticipate what might be fixing to happen in the baseball game, but I dont see changing your positioning.

Then if they don't do what you are anticipating, you are then "out of position."

Thanks
David

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by David B

I had a very tense game last week 4-3 and I never realized it was the 7th inning. I thought we had one more inning to play.

No big deal, I just really don't pay a lot of attention to the score or the inning either.

David: I have just one question: What harm does it do if the umpire keeps score?

Answer: None.

But an inning-by-inning record kept by an impartial umpire might become important if a dispute arises.

There's no conceivable downside and plenty of advantages.

Of course, I know you understand the necessity for the umpire to keep score in Youth League games.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by David B


Rich makes a very good point. I had a very tense game last week 4-3 and I never realized it was the 7th inning. I thought we had one more inning to play.

No big deal, I just really don't pay a lot of attention to the score or the inning either.

What was important is what was going on inside the fence.

We have a scorekeeper to handle all of the other stuff.

I know its important to know and anticipate what might be fixing to happen in the baseball game, but I dont see changing your positioning.

Then if they don't do what you are anticipating, you are then "out of position."

Thanks
David

I do not care what anyone else wants to know, but I want to know so I can leave when it is over. I officiate football and basketball as well, we want to know the score for those sports and make sure it is correct for all kinds of reasons. If football if I do not know the score, I cannot run the clock in a 40 point game, where the "mercy rule" is used. Because if I do not know, I might apply the rule wrong or kill the clock when am not suppose to.

In Basketball, the half and the score are important. For one in basketball the teams are suppose to be going in a certain direction, based on the half. And in basketball I want to know the foul counts and other things so that we can administer things properly.

Now in baseball there are not many situations you need to know, but I want to know when to go home. Because when that game is over, I do not want to be sticking around so that a coach can get in a "cheap shot" or I am on the field when a fight takes place and I am on the field then I have to file reports, if I was off the field I would not have to do anything. If that makes me a bad umpire, then I am a bad umpire. But while others want to be caught by surprise, I do not. I do not in the other sports, I do not in baseball.

Peace

[gsf23]

I'm sorry, but I have yet the see the purpose of this whole discussion. Who cares if I want to know the score and inning or don't want to know the score and inning. As long as I am doing the job I am supposed to do and doing it well, then what is the difference?

[GarthB]

...a fool and his money are soon parted. Not being a fool, the only part of Peter's article that I could read was the free part.

It contained this:

"I need to state up front that I don't know any NCAA umpires who keep a written record of the score and innings."

Remembering that the entire discussion the article refers to was basically a debate as to whether umpires should keep a written record of the score and inning, This statement was enough.

Peter, thanks for putting the meat of the issue in the free teaser.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by gsf23
I'm sorry, but I have yet the see the purpose of this whole discussion.

Because umpires seem to spend a lot of time worried about what someone does. This is why there are indicators discussed. Why there have even been major discussions about wearing the new helmet masks. Also why guys are debating this issue.

All I want from a partner is to call their game and let us go home. What specific tools you use to help you call the game is really not much of my concern. Of course their are standards and there should be, but an indiciator or writing the score down is not something that interfers with my game.

Peace

[GarthB]

Originally posted by gsf23
I'm sorry, but I have yet the see the purpose of this whole discussion. Who cares if I want to know the score and inning or don't want to know the score and inning. As long as I am doing the job I am supposed to do and doing it well, then what is the difference?

That is what the debate was about: doing the job you're supposed to be doing and not someone else's job.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by GarthB

That is what the debate was about: doing the job you're supposed to be doing and not someone else's job.

How is keep score for you personal benefit, doing someone else's job?

Peace

[GarthB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

[

How is keep score for you personal benefit...
Peace

Who writes your material, Jay Silverheels?

Read the whole sentence. Pay attention to the first part. Now find, in any umpire mechanic book, rule book, binder or casebook, instructions to the umpire or any mention that keeping score or keeping track of innings is the job of the umpire. Be sure to report back to us. We'll wait.

In the meantime: that is what the debate was about. Is this part of the job of the umpire? Is it? No.

Now then, if you think it helps you, by all means do it. I don't shiv a git. But it is not the umpire's job, plain and simple.

Does it get done? Hopefully. By whom? Someone else.

Now you can see where the second part of the sentence came from. It is someone elses' job.


[Edited by GarthB on Apr 18th, 2004 at 08:38 PM]

[David B]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

David: I have just one question: What harm does it do if the umpire keeps score?

Answer: None.

But an inning-by-inning record kept by an impartial umpire might become important if a dispute arises.

There's no conceivable downside and plenty of advantages.

Of course, I know you understand the necessity for the umpire to keep score in Youth League games.

I agree there is no harm at all. I guess my point is that many times we as umpires spend a lot of time doing things on the baseball field that are NOT important to our job as umpire.

Often times these same umpires then miss other important details of their job.

And you are right, in youth league games, it is a necessity.

Thanks
David

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by GarthB
Read the whole sentence. Pay attention to the first part. Now find, in any umpire mechanic book, rule book, binder or casebook, instructions to the umpire or any mention that keeping score or keeping track of innings is the job of the umpire. Be sure to report back to us. We'll wait.

I did not realize that everything in umpiring was associated directly from a book. Especially when I hear the "indicator" debates that have gone on. I have never read anywhere that there is something wrong with using one, but I hear umpires make an issue out of if for some reason. So I do not need to report anything, just answer the question.

Originally posted by GarthB
In the meantime: that is what the debate was about. Is this part of the job of the umpire? Is it? No.

Who said anything about what your job is or what your job is not? I did not think this discussion was about what was part of the job discription. There are a lot of things not associated with job discription, but I and many do them.

Originally posted by GarthB
Now then, if you think it helps you, by all means do it. I don't shiv a git. But it is not the umpire's job, plain and simple.

Again, did not know we were debating whose job was what and what our job was suppose to involve. But then again, this is why I am confused by your issue here.

Originally posted by GarthB
Does it get done? Hopefully. By whom? Someone else.

OK, and your point is what? What does that have to do with myself or anyone else that decides to write down the score? Does that mean you are the only person doing it? Does that mean if what you have done is wrong is the last and final say on the issue? I know I keep things on my lineup cards that others do not, does that mean if I put something down that I am the final say on this issue?

Originally posted by GarthB
Now you can see where the second part of the sentence came from. It is someone elses' job.

Again, I did not realize that we were debating what was someone's job or not. But that is not the question I asked you. I just wanted to know why it matters to you or anyone else what they put down for their own personal reference? But as usual, umpires like yourself cannot have a discussion without making this into a personal issue and name calling everyone that does not agree with you. I am just trying to find out why it matters to folks like yourself if I wear a West Vest as compared to a +POS Chest protector when both are personal choices? Just like what I write down on a card that you would not even know I had.

Peace

[Tim C]

Garth, Garth, Garth:

Do not attempt to wrestle in the mud with a pig.

Tee

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Tim C
Garth, Garth, Garth:

Do not attempt to wrestle in the mud with a pig.

Tee

Just goes to show again, that many are more worried about being thought of as a "Big dog" than explaining to the rest of us how to not be a "little dog" in your eyes.

Keep on keepin on!!!

Peace

[GarthB]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Again, did not know we were debating whose job was what and what our job was suppose to involve. But then again, this is why I am confused by your issue here.



Peace

Let's see. I posted: "That is what the debate was about: doing the job you're supposed to be doing and not someone else's job."

And you posted: "did not know we were debating whose job was what, etc."

Well, now ya know.

Please take the last word. Tim is right.

1. They enjoy it. 2. You get as dirty as they are.