View Single Post
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Apr 10, 2004, 01:41pm
David B David B is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,772
Don't know what you are asking

Don't know exactly what you are asking, but you might be getting the cart ahead of the horse.

Team A at bat and Big Ben who plays F3 (carries a piano on his back to first) is at bat and singles. With your philosophy coach comes to you and says I want to use a courtesy runner for Ben, he's now my pitcher.

So you announce your sub and let the CR run for Ben?

That makes a huge advantage for team A. CR comes around and scores and then later in the inning BR Joe gets a single and now coach comes to you and says, I'm making a change. Joe is now my pitcher and you are going to allow CR for Joe??

See what a mess you have created.

So by not allowing them to project a pitcher you keep the team honest. If he's not pitched on the mound, then he's not a pitcher.

I think that;s what you're asking.

Thanks
David

Quote:
Originally posted by joemoore
In FED rules, there was a discussion about using a curtesy runner for a substitute for the pitcher. These are the rules I found that were relevant to the discussion.

Courtesy Runners 1. At any time, the team at bat may use courtesy runners for the pitcher...

Rule 2.28.1 The pitcher is the player who is designated in the lineup as being responsible for pitching to the batter.

Rule 1.1.3 A player is designated on the lineup card and in the scorebook by name, shirt number, batting order position and by fielding position.

Rule 3.1.1 A substitute may replace a player of his team when the ball is dead and time has been called. The UIC shall record any reported substitutions on the lineup card and then announce immediately...

I think it is clear that a substitution can be made at any time. At the time of the substitution, the change is recorded on the lineup card. Whatever is on the lineup card is the official lineup. If the substitute is listed as a pitcher or a catcher, then they are entitled to a courtesy runner.

Most veteran officials in my chapter disagree with me. They say that a substitute only gets a position when he takes the field, up until that point he is simply an offensive substitute. That makes sense, except the rules say a substitute can be made at any time, and that the fielding position shall be designated on the lineup card.

I think people are getting confused by the second part of rule 3.1.1 which is for "unannounced" substitutions. An announced sub is effective immediately, unannounced is effective when the ball is live and the player is in the fielding position or the batter's box, etc.

I think people also get confused by the "no prospective" subs clause. I think they get it backwards. Prospective means "looking to the future". To me, this means a coach cannot say, after Baker completes his turn at bat, then Charles will take his place. That is prospective. If the coach says, Charles will replace Baker, then even if it is not Baker's turn at bat the substitution is recorded immediately and the change is effective immediately. The coach can not then go back on it and say he changed his mind.

Of course, in the pros, no coach would ever announce a sub early, because they don't want to lose options. If the pitcher is the 3rd batter and the coach knows he will pinch hit, he doesn't wait because he has to, he waits so he knows if it is a left or right handed pitcher, and whether anyone was injured, and whether the first 2 batter reached base or scored. It's just good baseball. And in the pros, there is no courtesy runner, so it doesn't matter if the sub has a position or not.

Anyway, that's my opinion, I think it's logical and supported by the rules. I hate when veteran umpires will tell me, you have to use common sense. I think my interpretation is logical, it follows the rules to the letter and it makes sense from the standpoint: the lineup card is the final decision.

It doesn't make sense to me that the substitute pitcher is unable to warm up, and the catcher cannot get his gear on because he has not acquired the right to the position. Especially, when in the top of the first, we go by the lineup card.

Reply With Quote