warming up

[southump]

Bases loaded, two outs. Batter grounds to third. thirdbaseman elects to tag runner from second. slowly walks to tag him standing close to second base. Runner from first pass him on his way to third, meanwhile runner from third has scored. Does run counts?. I think it does because it wasn´t a force out but a rule´s passing a preceding runner.
would you guys let me know your oppinions and why´s

[greymule]

Never thought of that one. Since the runner from 1B had rounded 2B, his third out would not be a force and would remove the force on the runner from 2B. Unless the defense could nail the BR before he got to 1B, the run, having crossed the plate before the out, would score.

Quick thinking by the runner from 1B to put himself out by passing the runner.

Maybe somebody knows of a rule that permits the defense still to get a force out on the runner from 2B. For example, if BR had hit safely, and the runner from 2B missed 3B, and then the defense got a non-force third out on a following runner, they could still appeal the miss at 3B for a force (fourth) out.

But there's something not right about allowing the offense to commit an infraction that prevents the defense from accomplishing what it would have otherwise. A defender tagging a runner and thereby removing a force on a preceding runner is one thing. Permitting the offense to commit an infraction to its own advantage is something else. What if the passing of the runner was obviously intentional to create a non-force third out?

[Edited by greymule on Jan 3rd, 2004 at 05:00 PM]

[umpyre007]

Originally posted by southump
Bases loaded, two outs. Batter grounds to third. thirdbaseman elects to tag runner from second. slowly walks to tag him standing close to second base. Runner from first pass him on his way to third, meanwhile runner from third has scored. Does run counts?. I think it does because it wasn´t a force out but a rule´s passing a preceding runner.
would you guys let me know your oppinions and why´s

The runner doing the passing is out the instant he passes the other runner. This would be a timing play as to whether R3 touched home plate prior to the passing incident.

[umpyre007]

Originally posted by greymule
Maybe somebody knows of a rule that permits the defense still to get a force out on the runner from 2B. For example, if BR had hit safely, and the runner from 2B missed 3B, and then the defense got a non-force third out on a following runner, they could still appeal the miss at 3B for a force (fourth) out.

The status of the appeal being a force or not would not change IF the missed base was a force at the original time of miss. It will then always remain a force out upon proper appeal.

[greymule]

The status of the appeal being a force or not would not change IF the missed base was a force at the original time of miss.

This is true in OBR and Fed. According to the BRD, in NCAA, if the force was on at the beginning of the play, it would remain on (for purposes of missed bases only), even if a following runner is put out before the miss.

[umpyre007]

Basically NCAA is accepting a TOP force always remains a force on a missed base situation.

[BJ Moose]

There is no way that we are going to allow a run to score in this play. Credit to the poster.. it is interesting, however.

First we need to remember there is MORE to the rule of 3rd out by forceout.. the batter-runner safely reaching first base.

Perhaps B-R did not make it to 1st at time of illegal passing. That would kill the run.

Regardless... as said by another poster.. I'm not going to allow the offense to get a run they would not get simply because R1 runs fast.

Coach: Hey, Mike, bla bla bla
Me: Because

It seems logical. But I could be swayed the other way.. after all, F5 is a DOOFUS too for not just stepping on 3rd.

Originally posted by southump
Bases loaded, two outs. Batter grounds to third. thirdbaseman elects to tag runner from second. slowly walks to tag him standing close to second base. Runner from first pass him on his way to third, meanwhile runner from third has scored. Does run counts?. I think it does because it wasn´t a force out but a rule´s passing a preceding runner.
would you guys let me know your oppinions and why´s

[greymule]

Perhaps B-R did not make it to 1st at time of illegal passing. That would kill the run.

I don't think so. BR would have to be put out before getting to 1B, not just fail to get there before the 3rd out on somebody else.

I remember this case play from years ago:

Two out, Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B. Charles grounds to F5, who elects to tag Baker running to 3B. Abel scores before the tag on Baker, but then F5 throws to 1B in time to get Charles. Ruling: Fourth out at 1B is recognized, and Abel's run does not count.

The more I think about the play in the original post, the more I think the run should NOT count. The offense should not be allowed to make a deliberate out to gain an advantage. This is quite different from the defense erring and disadvantageously putting the wrong runner out. Suppose F5 had immediately begun to run to 3B for the force, but then the runner from 1B passed the runner on 2B just after the run scored (and before the out at 3B). I can't believe the run would be allowed to score on such a play.

[Edited by greymule on Jan 5th, 2004 at 02:09 PM]

[southump]

Suppose F5 had immediately begun to run to 3B for the force, but then the runner from 1B passed the runner on 2B just after the run scored (and before the out at 3B). I can't believe the run would be allowed to score on such a play.
Greymule, I don´t think so either. Because a force out take precdence about anything else, (passing, scoring). Indeed the fielder played right making the force at third to begin with. But reading all replays i kind of think that a appeal at third for the fouth out, will cancel the run and still valid

[greymule]

southump: I certainly sympathize, but the problem is that the out for passing the runner removes the force play on the preceding runner. I agree that it seems unfair, but unless somebody knows something further, I think we'd have to count the run.

[Hugo Tafurst2]

What is the offense doing that is so bad.... except being smart!

Many people are mentioning that it is "unfair" to use the out on R1 for passing R2..
I ask..... why??

Isn't there a common play (especially at the lower levels) where with 2 outs and R1, R3:
R1 slowly advances to 2nd, kind of stealing but hoping to draw a throw. If the throw is made, R1 will intentionally get into a rundown to delay the tag so R3 can score on a timing play.

Don't players intentionally hit sacrifice fly balls?

[greymule]

Hugo: I think the philosophical difference is that in the rundown play, the defense has opted to try for a putout, gambling that they'll get the out before the run scores. In the case of a passed runner, the offense has deliberately generated an advantageous out that the defense cannot prevent. It doesn't seem fair (to me) that the offense should be able to do that.

That play could happen this way: Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, Charles on 1B, 2 out. Daniels hit a pop to short left. Everybody runs except Baker, who thinks there's only 1 out and stands 3 steps off 2B. F7 is charging but can't quite make the catch and traps the ball. Abel has scored. As F7 is throwing to 3B for the force on Baker, Charles alertly deliberately passes Baker to cause a time play third out and remove the force on Baker.

Apparenly that's legal, but it doesn't seem fair.

[Hugo Tafurst2]

Grey,
I hear you.
This came up on another board recently also.
Like here, many posters thought it was "unfair".
It just doesn't strike me as unfair..

at worst, an unexpected fluke and a lucky break for the offense
at best, a brilliant move by a savy ball player!.

I guess we just have different ways of looking at it....

Oh by the way, if I ever see this play, I'll buy the first round!!

[gsf23]

Originally posted by greymule

That play could happen this way: Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, Charles on 1B, 2 out. Daniels hit a pop to short left. Everybody runs except Baker, who thinks there's only 1 out and stands 3 steps off 2B. F7 is charging but can't quite make the catch and traps the ball. Abel has scored. As F7 is throwing to 3B for the force on Baker, Charles alertly deliberately passes Baker to cause a time play third out and remove the force on Baker.

Apparenly that's legal, but it doesn't seem fair. [/B]

If you don't think it is fair, then ignore the passed runner, call the force and third, and if the coach asked say you didn't see the ruuner pass or they got the out before he passed him. I'm a coach and if you did this, I wouldn't br all over you, I would be all over my runner at second who didn't know how many outs there were.

[mcrowder]

Yes - that's always good advice. If you don't like the way a rule is written, pretend you don't notice things and lie to the coaches so that things can work out the way you thought was more fair, in contradiction to the rules. Great stuff. Please stay away from my chapter.