New Story/ Same Ump

[Jerry]

Both the professions of umpiring and coaching belong in the same sport. The smoother all aspects of the game, the more enjoyable it is for everyone involved. From experience, coaches and officials learn the proper way to get the information they need.

As the coach has already seen, asking the catcher for an answer wasn't the best way to handle it. Much better if the coach had asked, "A bit outside, Blue?" Or even better would simply yell out to the catcher, "Hey, Johnnie . . . set up a tad to your left."

As a coach for a semi-pro team (in addition to my umpiring duties in other leagues), I've learned that game-time is NOT the time to try teaching, training or educating the players. It's better to chart the balls and strikes, take notes on situations where your team "booted it" and plan your next practices around what could have been improved upon. Your job during a game is to coach; not to teach.

As my father told me a long time ago . . . pick your battles wisely. Save your arguments for the really big play!

[Mattinglyfan]

Jay R
I think you hit it right on the head. He warned me that was fine. Threatening my catcher was not. I have had several people give me suggestions in this thread. Here is one for umpires;
Not all coaches are out to publicly humiliate you. Umpiring is a very difficult job. Most of us understand that. You not only have to see something that happens in a split second, and be responsible for making a quick analysis, and judgement, but you have to be able to back up that judgement with individuals that are probably not going to agree with you anyway. I REALLY DO HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT FOR WHAT YOU DO. Part of your job is dealing with managers that are passionate about the game, and there players. There ar eways that we as managers can deal with you, and visa versa. Just because that you have the final say, pleas edon't abuse that power. If you have a problem bring it up with the manager. If you think you are being shown up in public, talk to the manager, you might just find out that that is not the case.

[Jerry]

For Mattinglyfan only:

Some of my absolute best allies in the sport now, were my worst enemies when I started officiating. Believe me . . . we've all "tippled a few" with the likes of Billy Martin, Mayo Smith, Mickey Mantle and Bob Eucher. The entire "sport" (players, coaches, umpires) were one gigantic fraternity at one time . . . and we all protected each other's butts.

Some of that may have changed over the years . . . but not a whole lot. The problems are more prevalent in amateur sports, and at the lower age brackets 11-14 .

Take my advice for what it's worth . . . teach your players and your coaches; respect for the game, for their equipment and for the officials. I will guarantee you . . . you'll win more games than you lose and your kids will have a whole lot more fun playing this GAME!!!!

Jerry

[Dave Hensley]

Jerry's reply is the best one yet. The coach's claim that he wasn't arguing balls and strikes when he asked his catcher where a pitch was is simply not credible. The advice given him in this thread is pretty much right on; the water is before the horse.

[GarthB]

Mattinglyfan:

You still don't get it. It doesn't matter what you think your intent was. What matters is how it was perceived. Umpires are not mind readers and, no, they are not going to take the time to walk over and say, "Hey coach, this in my perception of what you are doing, would you like to take a few minutes and tell me why you don't agree?"

Perception is reality. If you don't want to be perceived as challening balls and strikes, then don't yell out to your catcher "where was that one?" It's that simple. No need to complicate it further. You can control the situation; you can't control how someone reacts to it.

[Mattinglyfan]

Go back and read the first thread. In quotes you will see what was said. This is abviously not going to make one bit of differnece to you. For the past week our practices consists of 45 minutes of work with the catchers. Focus(blocking and FRAMING). The fact that the umpire took it as an insult to his umpiring skills is understandable. It wasn't my intention, but from what I have heard it is not the intenetion that matters it is how it is percieved. This website really is great. The reason I come here is to be better, by learning. Jerry, thank you. Dave you ought not to be so quick in questioning someone's credibility.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Mattinglyfan
This is abviously not going to make one bit of differnece to you.(snip) The fact that the umpire took it as an insult to his umpiring skills is understandable. It wasn't my intention, but from what I have heard it is not the intenetion that matters it is how it is percieved.

1. You're wrong again. It matters to me.

2. Congratulations. Now you get it.

3. Yes, the umpire made a mistake, but now you can help prevent that mistake in the future.

Good job.

[Mattinglyfan]

Your great man. I am just learning. I have been playing for over 20 years. I was never allowed to talk to Umpires... I do think that as much as I can learn to deal with umps, some of them could probably stand to learn a little more about how to deal with managers...

[Rich]

Originally posted by Mattinglyfan


Unless I address you, I am not talking to you, our about you. I am talking to my catcher.

If I had a dollar for every time a coach has tried to use this line WHILE CLEARLY ARGUING balls and strikes, I'd be rich.

Wait a minute. I AM Rich.

There are probably some coaches out there that think that they can say ANYTHING as long as they say it to the player rather than the umpire.

"I know those are strikes, Billy, but the umpire sucks and isn't calling those strikes. HEY, I WAS TALKING TO MY PLAYER!!!! YOU CAN'T EJECT ME!!!"

Rich

[Mattinglyfan]

yah were out to get you. I told you what I said, why I said it. I get the impression regardless of what the intent, reason, "DON'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT BALLS AND STRIKES." whether to the player, or the ump. Anything else you like to add, that might be helpful.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Mattinglyfan

My catcher caught a borderline pitch. I asked the Catcher" where did you catch that". He didn't answer. My pitcher was struggling struggling a little, so I called time to talk to my pitcher. My catcher came up to me and said
" Coach, the umpire just told me that if I answer you when you ask me where the pitch was , that he won't call a strike for us the rest of the game". (to 13 year old kid!)

I asked the umpire if he said that, and he said that I don't need to be questioning "his authortiy". "I said, if I was questioning your authority I would of asking you where the pitch was. " Since i am trying to get my 12 year old pitcher to figure out where the strike zone was, I decided to ask my catcher, as to not offend you...

You have received good responses and I will add this.

IMO, it sounds like there is more to the story than meets the eye It sounds like there is a "history" between you and this umpire which throws a different wrinkle on the scenario.

I think you know that when you said "I asked the Catcher" where did you catch that" would get the PU's attention. Also, everyone in the stands probably heard it as well which gives the impression that you are trying to show up the PU which although not mentioned is what you were trying to do based on your "history" with this umpire.

The PU was also wrong for talking to your catcher in the manner he did. If the PU indeed said "I won't call a strike for us the rest of the game". then he should be reported to the association but that still doesn't exuse the way you handled it.

It seems like you were "baiting" blue by the way you handled the situation and as mentioned there is probably more to this story than meets the eye.

Pete Booth

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by Mattinglyfan
yah were out to get you. I told you what I said, why I said it. I get the impression regardless of what the intent, reason, "DON'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT BALLS AND STRIKES." whether to the player, or the ump. Anything else you like to add, that might be helpful.

Yes, one more thing.

You have an excellent talent for expressing your personality with your writing style. Just from the above quoted post, I can understand how your situation of asking one innocent question caused an umpire to make such a demand of your catcher.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by Mattinglyfan
Dave you ought not to be so quick in questioning someone's credibility.

Before I posted anything, I read the entire thread. In particular, I noted your statements:

"The same umpire that I have had issues with all Season finally got to toss me. "

"He told me that if I asked my again, that I was gone. An inning later, I asked again , and he tossed me."

The tone and manner in which you presented your case in this thread made your claim that you were not arguing the umpire's calls not credible. I'm delighted that you now claim to understand the consistent replies you've received and you'll use it to be a better coach in the future, but the fact remains you entered this thread with a chip on your shoulder that most of us have seen a hundred times.

[Frankwag]

One point that I think has been missed:

Why is this ump squeezing a 12 or 13 year old kid? Get out there, call strikes, get the batters to swing the bat. Unless this guy likes 3 1/2 hour games, it makes no sense to squeeze kids so young. Granted, sometimes coaches don't see or do step out of line and challenge pitches that were legitimate balls. However, this seems like a recurring theme with this guy. Needs to rethink his umping overall and maybe condsider trying another sport.

[kylejt]

How do you know the umpire was squeezing the strike zone? You weren't sitting on the bench next to your Dad, Mattinglyfan, were you son?