Non-Listed Players

[Bandit]

Had a situation last night where a player was substituted into a NFHS game and was not listed on the lineup card and in fact not even on the program (not that the program has any bearing, just made the scorekeeper scramble).

Umpire stated that any player could be entered into the game and teams did not need to even have any of the available substitutes listed on the lineup card.
When reviewing the rule back last night I found that to be incorrect.

What is the ruling when a player is not listed? Is there a penalty in baseball? I know in softball there is but i could find no penalty in the baseball rule book. Did I miss something?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Bandit

Had a situation last night where a player was substituted into a NFHS game and was not listed on the lineup card and in fact not even on the program (not that the program has any bearing, just made the scorekeeper scramble).

Umpire stated that any player could be entered into the game and teams did not need to even have any of the available substitutes listed on the lineup card.
When reviewing the rule back last night I found that to be incorrect.

What is the ruling when a player is not listed? Is there a penalty in baseball? I know in softball there is but i could find no penalty in the baseball rule book. Did I miss something?

While the player must be listed, there is no penalty if the player is not, and anyone can be added and entered.

[Bandit]

So basically baseball does not hold their coaches to any type of responsibility or consequences if they fail to do one of their most basic duties?

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Bandit

So basically baseball does not hold their coaches to any type of responsibility or consequences if they fail to do one of their most basic duties?

OBR, NCAA and FED have no penalty for not listing subs. OBR and NCAA rules only require the batting order. OBR does also have this:
"4.03(c) As a courtesy, each lineup card presented to the umpire-inchief
should list the fielding positions to be played by each player in the batting order. If a designated hitter is to be used, the lineup card shall designate which hitter is to be the designated hitter. See Rule 5.11(a) (Rule 6.10(b)). As a courtesy, potential substitute players should also be listed, but the failure to list a potential substitute player shall not make such potential substitute player ineligible to enter the game."

I think some leagues have rules about listing subs to confirm legal positions on the club roster.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Bandit

So basically baseball does not hold their coaches to any type of responsibility or consequences if they fail to do one of their most basic duties?

The basic duty is to provide the batting order. The batting order is not the roster. Most leagues have a repository of the official rosters for each team. If they are on the roster they can play in the game. And that's why no one has a penalty for not listing subs on the batting order form.

[ilyazhito]

Rich, I agree with your logic on the baseball rule about substitutions not conflating the batting order with the roster.

Bandit, do you work basketball as well? You may be confusing the requirement of having a team submit its batting order to the home plate umpire in baseball with the basketball requirement of having a team submit its roster to the official scorer at least 10 minutes before the scheduled tip-off time.

Strictly speaking, the "list substitutes on the batting order" is a rule that has no penalty for non-compliance (unlike the basketball rule where one administrative technical foul is assessed for entering a player not present on the roster into the game [that foul covers all instances of a player not in the roster entering]). Apparently, the intent of the rule is to allow all possible players to enter a game (including returning JV players playing in the varsity game) without requiring the coach to exhaustively list everyone who could conceivably play.

In basketball, the roster size is limited to between 10-15 people, so it is possible to list everyone who could play on a single roster (including possible JV call-ups to the varsity game), but in baseball, an entire team can easily include 20-25 players. When you add a JV team to the varsity team, there would be no space to list all the players who could play in the varsity game. Therefore, a requirement to list all players for a baseball game would be nonsensical. This is why a coach must only list his batting order (Players in the batting order are locked into position, but anyone who is eligible can substitute into any position in the order. Because only starters can return to the game, it is not necessary to list substitutes, who cannot legally come back after leaving the game.)