runner hit by batted ball

[BEAREF]

Runners on 1st and 2nd...runner on 1st is hit by batted ball while advancing to 2nd...immediate dead ball and he is out...batter awarded 1st base.

Does the runner at 2nd get awarded 3rd because he was "forced" or should he be returned to 2nd?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by BEAREF

Runners on 1st and 2nd...runner on 1st is hit by batted ball while advancing to 2nd...immediate dead ball and he is out...batter awarded 1st base.

Does the runner at 2nd get awarded 3rd because he was "forced" or should he be returned to 2nd?

Once R1 was out no one was forcing R2. Therefore he returns.

[MT 73]

Correct.
And I blew that one a few years back.
Live and learn.

[BEAREF]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Once R1 was out no one was forcing R2. Therefore he returns.

That's how half of those involved in the discussion would rule. But we couldn't find anything in the rules book or case book.

[MT 73]

Originally Posted by BEAREF

That's how half of those involved in the discussion would rule. But we couldn't find anything in the rules book or case book.

Suppose F4 tagged R1 before he reached second base-- would that not have removed the force?
Of course it would.
So why would it be different when the same runner is called out for interference?
Sometimes-- and I am no exception-- we make the obvious overly complicated.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by BEAREF

That's how half of those involved in the discussion would rule. But we couldn't find anything in the rules book or case book.

OBR

5.09 (b) (7.08 in LL) Retiring a Runner
Any runner is out when:
(7) He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball
has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and
no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners
forced to advance.

NCAA

6-2-e A fair-hit ball touches a runner in fair territory before touching an infielder or an umpire and before passing an infielder who has a chance to make a play on the ball, other than the pitcher. The runner who is touched by the fair ball is out, and no other runner may advance or score, except when forced.

FED

See the Dead Ball Table. It is Activity 13 and Penalty 13 in my 2011 copy of the rules.

[parrothead]

Had this one in a LL game last spring and the umps blew it. As typical with LL sometimes, especially in minors, SS was playing near grass line, ball went through his legs and hit my runner advancing 2nd to 3rd, ump immediately called dead ball and runner out.

I discussed with him and of course other coach (who is a board member) is adamant that the runner is out. I say once it passes the infielder, that rule does not apply, its just like a throwing error hitting the runner not their fault ball went through legs, both claimed they have never heard or ever seen that? Really? So had to get Green book out and correct them.

But...because he called Dead Ball, there was nothing to do but just let each runner advance one base or could he of awarded more given fact runner at 2B was going to score easily had he just let the play go as he should have.

The idea of the forced runner is spot on call on the initial situation, its one of those that they should write clarification in the rule, that if any runner besides the lead runner is hit by the ball and called out, then those runners would go back since they are no longer forced. Even though it says that, I would still guess 30-50% of those out there will claim those are forced runners because they were forced to go. What Rich is saying is correct, but Im guessing would still be grossly misunderstood.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by parrothead

The idea of the forced runner is spot on call on the initial situation, its one of those that they should write clarification in the rule, that if any runner besides the lead runner is hit by the ball and called out, then those runners would go back since they are no longer forced. Even though it says that, I would still guess 30-50% of those out there will claim those are forced runners because they were forced to go. What Rich is saying is correct, but Im guessing would still be grossly misunderstood.

Just have them read the definition of force play. It says the force can be removed.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Had this one in a LL game last spring and the umps blew it. As typical with LL sometimes, especially in minors, SS was playing near grass line, ball went through his legs and hit my runner advancing 2nd to 3rd, ump immediately called dead ball and runner out.

I discussed with him and of course other coach (who is a board member) is adamant that the runner is out. I say once it passes the infielder, that rule does not apply, its just like a throwing error hitting the runner not their fault ball went through legs, both claimed they have never heard or ever seen that? Really? So had to get Green book out and correct them.

But...because he called Dead Ball, there was nothing to do but just let each runner advance one base or could he of awarded more given fact runner at 2B was going to score easily had he just let the play go as he should have.

The idea of the forced runner is spot on call on the initial situation, its one of those that they should write clarification in the rule, that if any runner besides the lead runner is hit by the ball and called out, then those runners would go back since they are no longer forced. Even though it says that, I would still guess 30-50% of those out there will claim those are forced runners because they were forced to go. What Rich is saying is correct, but Im guessing would still be grossly misunderstood.

Did anyone else have a play on the ball?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Matt

Did anyone else have a play on the ball?

In LL? Not likely.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by parrothead

I say once it passes the infielder, that rule does not apply,

I would use the term "through or (immediately) by" instead of "passes" -- in OBR merely being "past" the fielders does not exempt the runner from INT -- and this distinction often causes problems.

Just like in the OP -- does the "except if forced" mean "forced at the time of INT" or "forced by the BR being awarded first." We know it's th elatter, bust for someone just picking up the rule book and / or new to umpiring, it's not clear.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Had this one in a LL game last spring and the umps blew it. As typical with LL sometimes, especially in minors, SS was playing near grass line, ball went through his legs and hit my runner advancing 2nd to 3rd, ump immediately called dead ball and runner out.

I discussed with him and of course other coach (who is a board member) is adamant that the runner is out. I say once it passes the infielder, that rule does not apply, its just like a throwing error hitting the runner not their fault ball went through legs, both claimed they have never heard or ever seen that? Really? So had to get Green book out and correct them.

But...because he called Dead Ball, there was nothing to do but just let each runner advance one base or could he of awarded more given fact runner at 2B was going to score easily had he just let the play go as he should have.

The idea of the forced runner is spot on call on the initial situation, its one of those that they should write clarification in the rule, that if any runner besides the lead runner is hit by the ball and called out, then those runners would go back since they are no longer forced. Even though it says that, I would still guess 30-50% of those out there will claim those are forced runners because they were forced to go. What Rich is saying is correct, but Im guessing would still be grossly misunderstood.

While I am a softball umpire, the rule is the same.

I kicked this exact call in my very first state championship game. I was 18 years old, working a 16U Class B final. I am BU in a 2 man crew. Bases loaded, infield playing in. A sharp grounder passes F4 and hits R1 advancing to 2B. I call Dead Ball. Uh-Oh. (Mature language.)

I call my plate umpire in, and stammer at him. He says "Just spit it out, teebob." I said, "That ball was past the fielder, wasn't it?" He smiles, and says "Yup. Now what?"

We awarded everyone one base, and I learned a valuable lesson on timing that day.

[parrothead]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

In LL? Not likely.

No ball was headed to LF, matter of fact the SS was probably the deepest player on the left side as the 3B was in on the grass, which is cut in a little closer than where the SS was.

Board member coach, who then thought he might of remembered something about that rule then said "my left fielder was gonna force the kid at 3b"...really? This is after the game before playing them when he tried to have our P removed when I took my second visit...

But he did manage to get the home plate umpire to overturn an out call on a tag play made by the base ump who was right on top of the call meanwhile the home ump is what in Little League? 90 feet away who should be maybe anticipating a play at home since it was 1st and 3rd?