Should base umpire ever be in Position B?

[tibear]

I've been an umpire for many years now and mostly working in two man systems. Baseball Canada, where I live, and most other umpire associations require base umpires to position themselves in Position B, between first and second base with a runner only on first base.

Most seasoned umpires will agree that angle is better than distance and if so I contend that Position C, between second and third base provides much better angles then Position B.

From position C there are no sliding runners to look through on pickoffs at first or steals at second. You have a full view of second base on steals and the angle to first is far superior from C than B.

What do the rest of you think? Is angle really better than distance or do you agree that base umpires should remain in Position B to be closer to the action?

[scrounge]

How on earth is the angle to first better in C than B? It's essentially the same line, just farther away. Unless your definition of C is different than mine.

You may be better off on steals a bit in C than B. Unless the shortstop makes the play. Then you'll have a great view of the shortstop's butt, but maybe not the play. Sometimes it will be better, sometimes not, but combined with positioning for pickoffs, B is the better choice.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by tibear

I've been an umpire for many years now and mostly working in two man systems. Baseball Canada, where I live, and most other umpire associations require base umpires to position themselves in Position B, between first and second base with a runner only on first base.

Most seasoned umpires will agree that angle is better than distance and if so I contend that Position C, between second and third base provides much better angles then Position B.

From position C there are no sliding runners to look through on pickoffs at first or steals at second. You have a full view of second base on steals and the angle to first is far superior from C than B.

What do the rest of you think? Is angle really better than distance or do you agree that base umpires should remain in Position B to be closer to the action?

If you are truly in B I don't see why a step would not give you a good look at the pick at 1B. If your are nimble a drift back with the throw to 2B puts you in deep B with a good look at the most prevelant swipe tag at 2B and also good look at the front of the bag if it's a tag to the bag.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by umpjim

If you are truly in B I don't see why a step would not give you a good look at the pick at 1B. If your are nimble a drift back with the throw to 2B puts you in deep B with a good look at the most prevelant swipe tag at 2B and also good look at the front of the bag if it's a tag to the bag.

And the step should be FORWARD, not towards first base.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by Rich

And the step should be FORWARD, not towards first base.

This.

It took me awhile to figure this out... and even after I figured it out, it took me a few games to actually DO it... and even after I started doing it, it's still not completely automatic for me yet.

I've actually been setting up in B with my left foot behind my right, so that it's more natural to step forward first when the pickoff throw happens.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Rich

And the step should be FORWARD, not towards first base.

I thought that was a given but it's always good to reinforce it.

[thumpferee]

A lil trick I learned back in the day by a vet.

I take 1 big step with my right foot toward the pitcher as I see the throw. I then take one step with my left toward 1st as I process, then make the call. I then take 5 short steps backward to make it look like I took 5 steps forward

[CT1]

Originally Posted by thumpferee

A lil trick I learned back in the day by a vet.

I take 1 big step with my right foot toward the pitcher as I see the throw. I then take one step with my left toward 1st as I process, then make the call. I then take 5 short steps backward to make it look like I took 5 steps forward

Is there a name for this dance?

[tibear]

Most people agree that the only advantage that the B position gives you over C with the pick off at first is that the distance is shorter. I'm assuming that all of the movements that people are talking about could be used in C to give you the exact same angle that you would have at first.

Can I move the question now to the steal of second. Where do people think they have the better angle to make the call at second? Position B or C?

[scrounge]

Originally Posted by tibear

Most people agree that the only advantage that the B position gives you over C with the pick off at first is that the distance is shorter. I'm assuming that all of the movements that people are talking about could be used in C to give you the exact same angle that you would have at first.

Can I move the question now to the steal of second. Where do people think they have the better angle to make the call at second? Position B or C?

Basic geometry - a step forward in B (let's say 2-3 feet) is more impactful and creates more of a useful angle than that same sized step in C, 30% or so greater straight line distance. So I disagree that the "only" advantage of B is shorter distance - though that's real too, not only but also because of the perception from others.

As to steals, occasionally C may be better but I think it has a considerably higher probability of being worse. If the SS takes the play, you may just be looking at his backside. If the 2B takes it, you still might get screened. From B, the angle should be open unless the runner slides inside or something. Even then, a read step inwards once you're satisfied the throw isn't hitting you should open that up for most plays. Play the odds.

[bob jenkins]

Many throws to second on a steal are not to the bag -- they result in a "swipe tag". You can see that from B better than you can from C.

If the throw is to the bag, you can move to a spot (almost) directly in line with the throw from either B or C.

And, in B you don't really need to "read" the throw. If it's a poor throw, it will be coming toward you. You need to back up (or at least not move in) so you don't get hit -- putting you in line for the swipe tag. If it's a good throw, you can move in just far enough that you don't get hit, and then turn -- putting you in a good position for the tag at the base.

[tibear]

The problem I have on a steal of second isn't with the tag. The problem is, did the runner touch the bag before the tag is made. Many times the runner completely blocks my view of the bag. I'm not worried about the easy calls (out or safe) as those are obvious.....it's the close ones that I sometimes wonder if the player had a hand on the bag just before the tag is made.

Many of the throws are on the first base side of second meaning that I can only go so far towards the mound without getting hit by the throw which puts me even more behind the sliding runner and blocking the view of the bag.

From position C, even if the SS takes the throw, all I'm looking for some part of the front of the bag which is usually easy to see through the SS legs. From C, I can move as much as I want to my left to get that good angle on the bag and aren't restricted by the angle of the throw keeping me towards first and closing off the angle.

[jicecone]

I have found that if I get into the deep "B" position, (grass line or near baseline) that this, contributes to the problem you are talking about. Your too close to the bag and you have more distance to cover while watching the ball and getting into position for that good view.

Setting up 3-5 ft inside the grass line/ baseline or approximately half way between mound and baseline, along a line which connects the plate with the edge of the pitching mound, enables you to watch the release of the ball and step behind the mound after the ball has passed. You should end up halfway between 2nd base and the mound or even a step more towards the "C" position. Come set and then take a step or two to make your call.

When you open up to second you will have an excellent view of the base for all situations and the one or two steps will give you time to analysis what you observed, and in the end, perception that you were closer to the play.

Now if while watching the throw(a must) and you can see that it is off, so be it and adjust accordingly. This will require more hustle than the "camp out at second BU" but, I always considered that as part of my job.

Bottom line is you have to get into position while observing the throw that will take you to the play or not. The perception of making a call for a pickoff play at first, in the "C" position, is going to eventually burn you even if the correct call is made.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by jicecone

I have found that if I get into the deep "B" position, (grass line or near baseline) that this, contributes to the problem you are talking about. Your too close to the bag and you have more distance to cover while watching the ball and getting into position for that good view.

Setting up 3-5 ft inside the grass line/ baseline or approximately half way between mound and baseline, along a line which connects the plate with the edge of the pitching mound, enables you to watch the release of the ball and step behind the mound after the ball has passed. You should end up halfway between 2nd base and the mound or even a step more towards the "C" position. Come set and then take a step or two to make your call.

When you open up to second you will have an excellent view of the base for all situations and the one or two steps will give you time to analysis what you observed, and in the end, perception that you were closer to the play.

Now if while watching the throw(a must) and you can see that it is off, so be it and adjust accordingly. This will require more hustle than the "camp out at second BU" but, I always considered that as part of my job.

Bottom line is you have to get into position while observing the throw that will take you to the play or not. The perception of making a call for a pickoff play at first, in the "C" position, is going to eventually burn you even if the correct call is made.

I have had no problems with drifting toward deep B when the throw is on the way and like the view I get of most of the steal plays at 2B. There must be a reason why 3 and 4 man mechanics give the umpire a choice between deep B and deep C and I see most guys take deep B even in my few views this year of MLB.