Question and Advice

[Clark Kent]

Three-person boys varsity game. Ball was thrown into the post on my side of the court while I was in the C position. My Lead was coming across, so I was officiating the open look I had and was ready to slide up to Trail and the next advantageous moment.

A44 Catches the ball with his back to the basket and the defender (B15). A44 turns and as he turns he lowers his shoulder, however at the same time (or very close to it) B15 is swiping down hard and catches A44's arm. Both go to the ground in what appears to be a hard (not intentional nor flagrant) defensive foul.

Both lead and I blow our whistles I was intending to go with an offensive foul, but only got my arm part way up when I recognized my partners whistle as well as closed on the two players than have now crashed to the floor. My partner on the other hand has a defensive foul on B15 and is also on top of things assuring that nothing extra is occurring with bodies on the floor.

In hindsight I wish I would have handled things differently, but because the "hard" foul by the defender I felt it would be very difficult to "sale" my offensive foul even if it actually occurred first, and hence didn't approach my partner to inform him that I had something different (my mistake).

In this situation where my arm moved upward but stopped short of a preliminary signal we aren't obligated to call a double foul....or are we?

To add to the already complex situation, the B's coach heard my whistle blow and saw my arm move and astutely began to point it out yelling that I was going to call a travel prior to the foul. The coach boisterously begged and pleaded for the "travel", making me feel even worse for not having communicated better with my partner.

So in short, I'm asking for the sagacious advice of those who frequent this forum on how to have better handled that situation...in particularly with the coach noticing my arm being raised and then quickly dropped.

Thanks

[amusedofficial]

You're not obligated to call a double foul unless and until you both signal conflicting calls, i.e. one signals charge and one signals block.

If you both whistle it, and even if you both go up with the foul sign, you still have the right to defer to your partner. You are not obligated to do so and may signal what you think you believe you probably saw, in which case it is a double foul. However, in the absence of conflicting mechanics, and where you have deferred to your partner, there is no double foul.

Perhaps I should say it's not a blarge until we say it is.

[Forksref]

You don't have to defer to your partner. Go to him and discuss it. The discussion usually goes like, "I've got this and you've got that and this occurred first so we go with it." If both happened at the exact same time, then you've got a double foul, which is rare.

I defer to my partner when we've both got the same, usually obvious call, and he is in his primary.

I think it looks worse if you've got an arm that partially goes up and you don't discuss it with your partner. Then, the B coach has a legitimate beef. If you discuss it then you have something concrete to tell that coach about what happened.

[amusedofficial]

Originally Posted by Forksref

You don't have to defer to your partner. Go to him and discuss it.

You're right

[Kelvin green]

Here is what I would ask.

How did you pregame this?

Who had primary call? If it was lead's primary let lead have it, If it was your primary you should have first shot?

There are going to be double whistles, get your hand up and keep it there. If you acknowledge that it is his call, then tell coach he had call, etc. Timidity will kick your butt....

[Camron Rust]

The only conflicting fouls that we're obligated to turn into a double foul are a block and a charge (note that a charge is NOT necessarily the same as a player control foul). That is because they're one act for which two officials have opposing opinions. (no need to reopen that debate again).

When one of the two fouls is something else, they're most likely not two opinions of the same contact but two different contacts.

In your case, it sounds like A charged while B committed an illegal use of hands foul. If one clearly came before the other, you could go with that and rule that the other was incidental (non-intentional dead ball contact). You could also go with a double foul if they were approximately the same time but the rules don't require it.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The only conflicting fouls that we're obligated to turn into a double foul are a block and a charge (note that a charge is NOT necessarily the same as a player control foul).

This is a revelation. Around here the charge signal is almost never seen as a preliminary. Usually it is just PC, sometimes supplemented with a point in the proper direction. You mean to say if you signal block, and I signal only a PC, it is ok to discuss and come up with one call? I'm sure others will chime in.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is a revelation. Around here the charge signal is almost never seen as a preliminary. Usually it is just PC, sometimes supplemented with a point in the proper direction. You mean to say if you signal block, and I signal only a PC, it is ok to discuss and come up with one call? I'm sure others will chime in.

Nope, he's saying if the prelim signal is given on any play other than a block/charge sitch, you can do get together.
If, however, it's given on a block/charge play, you cannot.

I've chimed and will now unchime unless something new comes up in this pointless discussion.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is a revelation. Around here the charge signal is almost never seen as a preliminary. Usually it is just PC, sometimes supplemented with a point in the proper direction. You mean to say if you signal block, and I signal only a PC, it is ok to discuss and come up with one call? I'm sure others will chime in.

Perhaps you have A1 hooking B1 with their elbow while, at about the same time, B1 contacts A1 by sticking their knee out....a PC foul and a block....but not a charge and a block. One official sees the hook, one sees the knee. Two independent actions...decide which came first.


B1 has obtains LGP position when A1 crashes into B1. However, B1 swats at the ball and smacks A1 on the face/arm/etc. You have a charge/PC and illegal use of hands. Again, two different actions...not a block/charge. Decide which came first.

So yes, if it is not a block vs. charge decision, the rules don't obligate the officials to a double foul. When you have the double whistle with both having shown their signals, the officials are going to be talking anyway and it should become clear that one wasn't calling a block/charge.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

So yes, if it is not a block vs. charge decision, the rules don't obligate the officials to a double foul. When you have the double whistle with both having shown their signals, the officials are going to be talking anyway and it should become clear that one wasn't calling a block/charge.

Yep.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Perhaps you have A1 hooking B1 with their elbow while, at about the same time, B1 contacts A1 by sticking their knee out....a PC foul and a block....but not a charge and a block. One official sees the hook, one sees the knee. Two independent actions...decide which came first.


B1 has obtains LGP position when A1 crashes into B1. However, B1 swats at the ball and smacks A1 on the face/arm/etc. You have a charge/PC and illegal use of hands. Again, two different actions...not a block/charge. Decide which came first.

So yes, if it is not a block vs. charge decision, the rules don't obligate the officials to a double foul. When you have the double whistle with both having shown their signals, the officials are going to be talking anyway and it should become clear that one wasn't calling a block/charge.

I understand all this. But according to most, the whole deal hinges on the conflicting signals. So, according to this logic, in this case, where it is possible that both fouls occurred at the same time, we are not obligated to report a double foul. But, in the case of a block/charge, where it is not possible for both to occur at the same time, we are obligated to report a double foul.

Seems really odd to me.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Which is exactly what I did. I was throwing my fist out more than going up with a fist for the offensive foul and that's why the coach thought it looked like I was calling a travel I guess.

We have all done that one time or another and then realize there is a another whistle. This is why you will learn to just hold your signal a half of a second or be more aware of another whistle. Then again this is a lot easier to do in a 3 Person situation than 2 Person.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The only conflicting fouls that we're obligated to turn into a double foul are a block and a charge (note that a charge is NOT necessarily the same as a player control foul). That is because they're one act for which two officials have opposing opinions. (no need to reopen that debate again).
When one of the two fouls is something else, they're most likely not two opinions of the same contact but two different contacts.

In your case, it sounds like A charged while B committed an illegal use of hands foul. If one clearly came before the other, you could go with that and rule that the other was incidental (non-intentional dead ball contact). You could also go with a double foul if they were approximately the same time but the rules don't require it.

Camron:

Come on. What better way is there to start the New Year and for me to start a rousing debate about whether A1 can commit a charging foul against B1 at the same time that B1 is commiting a blocking foul against A1. Where is your sense of adventure.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

I always try to pre-game this with people I have never worked with or have not worked with enough.

Around here we tend to give this to the primary coverage official unless there are other situations that can dictate who calls it, like who has called more fouls, who has a better angle, where did the ball come from or did something happen first?

If anything is learned this should be talked about every pre-game with people you do not work with normally or you have not worked with in a long time and you can avoid confusion. There are even many ways to handle this other than what I stated, but if you talk about it you can hash-out all the philosophies and perspectives.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I always try to pre-game this with people I have never worked with or have not worked with enough.

On double whistles, let’s both hold our preliminary signal and not give a block or player control signal.
Make eye contact with each other. Give the call to whoever has the primary coverage, most often the
lead official, unless you definitely have something different that happened first, in which case we’ll
talk about it.

Keep in mind that Connecticut is not only the "Land of Steady Habits", but is also the "Land of Two Person Games".