time out rule clarification

vawils · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Jun 03, 2005, 06:44pm

In an end of game situation (or I guess anytime) can the team that scores a basket (not free throw) call a time out before the opponent inbounds the ball in order to save time and set up the defense? I know they can after a free throw when the clock is stopped but what about when the clock is running? Thanks for any clarification on this, am still learning.

Camron Rust · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Jun 03, 2005, 07:50pm

Any team can call timeout when the ball is dead.

The ball is dead from the moment it passes through the net until the throwin begins. The throwin begins when the throw has the ball in his hands and is in a position to make a legal throw (or has had enough time to do so but is deliberately delaying). This coincides with the start of the 5 second count.

Said another way, the team may call the timeout anytime between the shot and the start of the 5 second count.

Mark Padgett · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Jun 03, 2005, 08:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Any team can call timeout when the ball is dead.

The ball is dead from the moment it passes through the net until the throwin begins. The throwin begins when the throw has the ball in his hands and is in a position to make a legal throw (or has had enough time to do so but is deliberately delaying). This coincides with the start of the 5 second count.

Said another way, the team may call the timeout anytime between the shot and the start of the 5 second count.

Camron - I'm going to give you a pass this time on teams "calling" vs. "requesting" a timeout just because I'm in such a good mood. Besides - I'm really tired.

blindzebra · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Jun 03, 2005, 09:26pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Any team can call timeout when the ball is dead.

The ball is dead from the moment it passes through the net until the throwin begins. The throwin begins when the throw has the ball in his hands and is in a position to make a legal throw (or has had enough time to do so but is deliberately delaying). This coincides with the start of the 5 second count.

Said another way, the team may call the timeout anytime between the shot and the start of the 5 second count.

The rule says at the disposal 6-1-2.

There is nothing in the rules about being in position to make a throw-in. CB 6.1.2.B and comment.

Once the throwing team has the ball it is too late.

Nevadaref · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Jun 03, 2005, 10:15pm

This is another small difference between NFHS and NCAA rules. The NCAA rule says something along the lines of the scoring team may request a TO until the thrower has the ball in his hands and is positioned OOB to make the throw-in.
For NFHS rules it is too late once the ball is deemed to be at the disposal of the thrower.

Camron Rust · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Jun 03, 2005, 10:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Any team can call timeout when the ball is dead.

The ball is dead from the moment it passes through the net until the throwin begins. The throwin begins when the throw has the ball in his hands and is in a position to make a legal throw (or has had enough time to do so but is deliberately delaying). This coincides with the start of the 5 second count.

Said another way, the team may call the timeout anytime between the shot and the start of the 5 second count.

The rule says at the disposal 6-1-2.

There is nothing in the rules about being in position to make a throw-in. CB 6.1.2.B and comment.

Once the throwing team has the ball it is too late.

But it's not at their disposal until they have it (or could have had it) in a position to make a throwin. That's the meaning of at the disposal.

Either team can call the timeout until the ball becomes live. When does it become live? When the throwin starts (at the disposoal). When does the 5 second count start? When the throwin starts. Do you start the count the moment the player picks up the ball?

To illustrate that point...

Consider a ball that, after it drops through the net, hits a player in the head and it rolls to the FT line (or even midcourt) where A3 picks it up. A3 walks directly but not quickly to the endline to perform the throwin. Are you suggesting it is too late for team B to have a timeout the moment A3 picks up the ball (20-30' from the endline)? If so, you have also decided the ball is live (that's the only way B can no longer call a timeout). Are you counting 5 seconds? If the ball is live for the throwin, you should be since the only way for the ball to become live is for the throwin to have begun. If you are counting, A3 will only have about 1-2 seconds left by the time he gets OOB.

Do you really think that is what is intended or written?

Common sense and the rules both suggest that your position can't be correct.

The whole purpose behind the "at the disposal" is to prevent a team from ~~deliberately~~ letting the ball roll around at their feet ~~in order to delay~~ causing a delay (let the clock run out, set up a play, rest, etc.) after a made basket when they could easily pick it up and make the throwin.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 5th, 2005 at 05:14 AM]

blindzebra · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Jun 03, 2005, 10:52pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Any team can call timeout when the ball is dead.

The ball is dead from the moment it passes through the net until the throwin begins. The throwin begins when the throw has the ball in his hands and is in a position to make a legal throw (or has had enough time to do so but is deliberately delaying). This coincides with the start of the 5 second count.

Said another way, the team may call the timeout anytime between the shot and the start of the 5 second count.

The rule says at the disposal 6-1-2.

There is nothing in the rules about being in position to make a throw-in. CB 6.1.2.B and comment.

Once the throwing team has the ball it is too late.

But it's not at their disposal until they have it (or could have had it) in a position to make a throwin. That's the meaning of at the disposal.

Either team can call the timeout until the ball becomes live. When does it become live? When the throwin starts (at the disposoal). When does the 5 second count start? When the throwin starts. Do you start the count the moment the player picks up the ball?

To illustrate that point...

Consider a ball that, after it drops through the net, hits a player in the head and it rolls to the FT line (or even midcourt) where A3 picks it up. A3 walks directly but not quickly to the endline to perform the throwin. Are you suggesting it is too late for team B to have a timeout the moment A3 picks up the ball (20-30' from the endline)? If so, you have also decided the ball is live (that's the only way B can no longer call a timeout). Are you counting 5 seconds? If the ball is live for the throwin, you should be since the only way for the ball to become live is for the throwin to have begun. If you are counting, A3 will only have about 1-2 seconds left by the time he gets OOB.

Do you really think that is what is intended or written?

Common sense and the rules both suggest that your position can't be correct.

The whole purpose behind the "at the disposal" is to prevent a team from deliberately letting the ball roll around at their feet in order to delay (let the clock run out, set up a play, rest, etc.) after a made basket when they could easily pick it up and make the throwin.

The rule is clear, you choose to use an extreme example.

Under normal play when the throwing team has the ball it is too late for the scoring team to call a TO. I think most officials would agree that this is their cut off point.

rainmaker · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Jun 03, 2005, 11:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
But it's not at their disposal until they have it (or could have had it) in a position to make a throwin. That's the meaning of at the disposal.

The magic words in this post are COULD HAVE HAD IT. The team that is inbounding the ball can't stand around for 10 or 15 seconds arguing about who should take it out. It was at their disposal the whole time, because they COULD HAVE HAD IT in a position to make a throwin.

Camron Rust · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 04, 2005, 05:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Any team can call timeout when the ball is dead.

The ball is dead from the moment it passes through the net until the throwin begins. The throwin begins when the throw has the ball in his hands and is in a position to make a legal throw (or has had enough time to do so but is deliberately delaying). This coincides with the start of the 5 second count.

Said another way, the team may call the timeout anytime between the shot and the start of the 5 second count.

The rule says at the disposal 6-1-2.

There is nothing in the rules about being in position to make a throw-in. CB 6.1.2.B and comment.

Once the throwing team has the ball it is too late.

But it's not at their disposal until they have it (or could have had it) in a position to make a throwin. That's the meaning of at the disposal.

Either team can call the timeout until the ball becomes live. When does it become live? When the throwin starts (at the disposoal). When does the 5 second count start? When the throwin starts. Do you start the count the moment the player picks up the ball?

To illustrate that point...

Consider a ball that, after it drops through the net, hits a player in the head and it rolls to the FT line (or even midcourt) where A3 picks it up. A3 walks directly but not quickly to the endline to perform the throwin. Are you suggesting it is too late for team B to have a timeout the moment A3 picks up the ball (20-30' from the endline)? If so, you have also decided the ball is live (that's the only way B can no longer call a timeout). Are you counting 5 seconds? If the ball is live for the throwin, you should be since the only way for the ball to become live is for the throwin to have begun. If you are counting, A3 will only have about 1-2 seconds left by the time he gets OOB.

Do you really think that is what is intended or written?

Common sense and the rules both suggest that your position can't be correct.

The whole purpose behind the "at the disposal" is to prevent a team from deliberately letting the ball roll around at their feet in order to delay (let the clock run out, set up a play, rest, etc.) after a made basket when they could easily pick it up and make the throwin.

The rule is clear, you choose to use an extreme example.

Under normal play when the throwing team has the ball it is too late for the scoring team to call a TO. I think most officials would agree that this is their cut off point.

The rule is indeed clear. My example was extreme in order to demonstrate that very point. It is inconsistent to say that the moment the ball is picked up, it is too late but not yet begin the throwin count. The point at which it is too late for the new defensive team to call timeout is precisely the same time that the throwin count begins. I don't think anyone is advocating starting the count the moment the ball is picked up. Unless a team is delibertate delaying, you do not ever start the throwin count before they have the ball OOB in a position to make the throwin.

To do otherwide is to completely miscontrue the purpose, meaning, spirint, and intent of "at the disposal". It is only there to allow the official to start the count if the official feels the team is deliberately delaying or when the official must start the throwin without at thrower as after a timeout when the team refuses to break the huddle in time.

Mark Padgett · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 04, 2005, 05:51pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Unless a team is delibertate delaying, you do not ever start the throwin count before they have the ball OOB in a position to make the throwin.

Camron, what about the times after a basket when the inbounding team has two or more players who just stand there and look at each other as if they each think the other is "supposed" to inbound the ball? I know you've had this happen. They're not "deliberatly" delaying, yet don't you start the count?

I think you are mostly correct in the rule interpretation, but I think there are some times you would start a count just when a team is "confused".

blindzebra · #11 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 04, 2005, 06:14pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Any team can call timeout when the ball is dead.

The ball is dead from the moment it passes through the net until the throwin begins. The throwin begins when the throw has the ball in his hands and is in a position to make a legal throw (or has had enough time to do so but is deliberately delaying). This coincides with the start of the 5 second count.

Said another way, the team may call the timeout anytime between the shot and the start of the 5 second count.

The rule says at the disposal 6-1-2.

There is nothing in the rules about being in position to make a throw-in. CB 6.1.2.B and comment.

Once the throwing team has the ball it is too late.

But it's not at their disposal until they have it (or could have had it) in a position to make a throwin. That's the meaning of at the disposal.

Either team can call the timeout until the ball becomes live. When does it become live? When the throwin starts (at the disposoal). When does the 5 second count start? When the throwin starts. Do you start the count the moment the player picks up the ball?

To illustrate that point...

Consider a ball that, after it drops through the net, hits a player in the head and it rolls to the FT line (or even midcourt) where A3 picks it up. A3 walks directly but not quickly to the endline to perform the throwin. Are you suggesting it is too late for team B to have a timeout the moment A3 picks up the ball (20-30' from the endline)? If so, you have also decided the ball is live (that's the only way B can no longer call a timeout). Are you counting 5 seconds? If the ball is live for the throwin, you should be since the only way for the ball to become live is for the throwin to have begun. If you are counting, A3 will only have about 1-2 seconds left by the time he gets OOB.

Do you really think that is what is intended or written?

Common sense and the rules both suggest that your position can't be correct.

The whole purpose behind the "at the disposal" is to prevent a team from deliberately letting the ball roll around at their feet in order to delay (let the clock run out, set up a play, rest, etc.) after a made basket when they could easily pick it up and make the throwin.

The rule is clear, you choose to use an extreme example.

Under normal play when the throwing team has the ball it is too late for the scoring team to call a TO. I think most officials would agree that this is their cut off point.

The rule is indeed clear. My example was extreme in order to demonstrate that very point. It is inconsistent to say that the moment the ball is picked up, it is too late but not yet begin the throwin count. The point at which it is too late for the new defensive team to call timeout is precisely the same time that the throwin count begins. I don't think anyone is advocating starting the count the moment the ball is picked up. Unless a team is delibertate delaying, you do not ever start the throwin count before they have the ball OOB in a position to make the throwin.

To do otherwide is to completely miscontrue the purpose, meaning, spirint, and intent of "at the disposal". It is only there to allow the official to start the count if the official feels the team is deliberately delaying or when the official must start the throwin without at thrower as after a timeout when the team refuses to break the huddle in time.

The count starts when the ball is at the disposal, under normal play that is when the ball comes out of the net and the throwing team controls the ball.

Again this is under normal conditions, I'm not waiting until they get OOBs to start this count.

Check out CB 4.43.3.

[Edited by blindzebra on Jun 4th, 2005 at 07:17 PM]

ChuckElias · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 04, 2005, 06:35pm

I wouldn't mind seeing this rule changed, to be honest. The NBA doesn't allow a team that has just scored to be granted a time-out. I personally like that rule, b/c it eliminates exactly the kind of decision that we're talking about here. In the closing seconds of a close game, the coach is yelling "TIMEOUT!" before the ball even goes in. And then we have to judge if he requests it properly after it goes through but before it's at the other team's disposal. Just eliminate the option to request time-out after you score. While we're at it, eliminate the option for the coach to request the time-out at all. While we're at that, eliminate subs after a made FT to get rid of all those mini-TO's at the end of a game.

I know. It's not gonna happen. But I wish it would. Those subs after every single FT make the game so much longer.

rainmaker · #13 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 04, 2005, 09:29pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
While we're at that, eliminate subs after a made FT to get rid of all those mini-TO's at the end of a game.

I agree with this one for sure!

Camron Rust · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 05, 2005, 04:13am

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Unless a team is delibertate delaying, you do not ever start the throwin count before they have the ball OOB in a position to make the throwin.

Camron, what about the times after a basket when the inbounding team has two or more players who just stand there and look at each other as if they each think the other is "supposed" to inbound the ball? I know you've had this happen. They're not "deliberatly" delaying, yet don't you start the count?

I think you are mostly correct in the rule interpretation, but I think there are some times you would start a count just when a team is "confused".

Agreed...doesn't have to be deliberate.

Camron Rust · #15 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 05, 2005, 04:23am

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

The count starts when the ball is at the disposal, under normal play that is when the ball comes out of the net and the throwing team controls the ball.

Again this is under normal conditions, I'm not waiting until they get OOBs to start this count.

Check out CB 4.43.3.

In a typcial case, it takes a player ~2 seconds to get OOB and get turned around for the throwin. Are you seriously telling me you only give them 3 seconds left from the time they could make a legal throwin to release the throwin? Sounds like a recipie for a T.

Furthermore, the casebook's only reference to "at the disposal" is for when the ball is bouncing around when no player has picked it up. The comment also mentions that the official should give teh team a moment or two in this case.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 5th, 2005 at 06:32 AM]