what would you do

REFVA · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 24, 2006, 07:36am

Calling a 14U boys game this weekend. Close game, fouls seem to be fairly even 6 to 8. One coach turns to my partner after he makes a quite obvious foul, coach yells out " Can I get some of those calls?". I immediatley blew my whistle and proceded to walk toward the coach and pulled him away from his team and told him enough. Let's finish this game without any incidence. In would normally hit him up with a T becuase he is questioning our integrity. The game was close and the games clock had 3 minutes to go.

would you guys have T'd him with that remark?

BktBallRef · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 24, 2006, 08:22am

Why did you blow your whistle?

I don't have a problem talking to him but I don't think I'd drawn attention to it with a whistle blast.

mick · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 24, 2006, 08:54am

Seems like I woulda ignored it.
I wouldn't even have thought about "integrity" being questioned.
Coach's comment was too weak to worry about.
mick

KenThree · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 24, 2006, 09:56am

Seems like it must be the effects of global warming. Hot summer nights have given me cause to pull the trigger on too many Ts (three) this past week. I think summer ball -- with its less structure and "amateur" coaches -- leads to officials getting more annoyed with the innocuous comments. We're working too many games consecutively in crowded gyms with over-lapping whistles from other courts. Concentration is affected and we don't think before we strike.

I probably would have tried to pass on the T for that comment, but can tell you that I handed one out in the last week for something very similar.

Context and tone never make it into any of our descriptions of caseplays here. My guess is you wish you had it back, but felt it was very warranted at the time. My opinion: trust your gut feeling at the time and move on.

RonRef · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 24, 2006, 11:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFVA

Calling a 14U boys game this weekend. Close game, fouls seem to be fairly even 6 to 8. One coach turns to my partner after he makes a quite obvious foul, coach yells out " Can I get some of those calls?". I immediatley blew my whistle and proceded to walk toward the coach and pulled him away from his team and told him enough. Let's finish this game without any incidence. In would normally hit him up with a T becuase he is questioning our integrity. The game was close and the games clock had 3 minutes to go.

would you guys have T'd him with that remark?

REFVA, if you going to be a good official you will need to let these comments go, you will here much worse. When you walk towards him it makes you look like the bad guy not him. A technical for that would be totally wrong, you must understand that he is trying to get calls, that is what coached do. It seems to me that this coach didn't cross the line with his comments.

JRutledge · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 24, 2006, 12:15pm

Ignore him. The coach would have just lost credibility with me and any other comment he makes would have not been take too seriously at that point. The fouls are 6 to 8, if he is complaining about foul counts, then he really does not have a leg to stand on. Now if I was standing right next to him, I might have made some kind of comment (brief) but I would not go out of my way to say anything to this coach. The only way I can see you T'ing up a coach is if this was one comment along with many other comments and he had been warned. If I was on the other side of the court, I would just ignore him and keep doing what I have been doing the entire game.

Peace

Jurassic Referee · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 24, 2006, 12:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonRef

A technical for that would be totally wrong, you must understand that he is trying to get calls, that is what coaches do.

I disagree that it's totally wrong.

That is what coaches do only if the officials will allow them to do that. Whether to let a coach get away with trying to work them is up to each individual official.

Whether an official wants to put up with a comment like that is up to the individual official on the spot. Depending on the circumstances, an official may want to ignore, warn or "T". You just do what you feel is best under those particular circumstances on that particular day. Each official has a different level of tolerance, but a coach really doesn't really have any comeback if he draws an official who happens to be in a crap-free mood. Too bad, too sad iow. After all, "attempting to influence an official's decision" is very specifically noted as being a technical foul under NFHS rule 10-4-1(b).

Jmo, but I don't think that you can set hard-and-fast rules when it comes to calling technical fouls.

Bad Zebra · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 24, 2006, 07:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFVA

would you guys have T'd him with that remark?

I think this would depend on his behavior up to that point. If he's been sane and civil...let it go. If he's been at it all game...." Can I get some of those calls?" Sure coach...here ya go... WHACK!

johnnyrao · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 24, 2006, 09:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Ignore him. Now if I was standing right next to him, I might have made some kind of comment (brief) but I would not go out of my way to say anything to this coach.

I agree with JR. If I was close enough I may something simple, like "No".

Mark Padgett · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 24, 2006, 10:15pm

"Sure, coach. Just give me your debit card and PIN numbers and you can have as many as you want."

JugglingReferee · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 24, 2006, 11:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

"...PIN numbers..."

Redundant.

PIN = Personal Identification Number.

Camron Rust · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 25, 2006, 12:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Redundant.

PIN = Personal Identification Number.

Is that the thing you use in the ATM machine?

RonRef · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 25, 2006, 05:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I disagree that it's totally wrong.

That is what coaches do only if the officials will allow them to do that. Whether to let a coach get away with trying to work them is up to each individual official.

Whether an official wants to put up with a comment like that is up to the individual official on the spot. Depending on the circumstances, an official may want to ignore, warn or "T". You just do what you feel is best under those particular circumstances on that particular day. Each official has a different level of tolerance, but a coach really doesn't really have any comeback if he draws an official who happens to be in a crap-free mood. Too bad, too sad iow. After all, "attempting to influence an official's decision" is very specifically noted as being a technical foul under NFHS rule 10-4-1(b).

Jmo, but I don't think that you can set hard-and-fast rules when it comes to calling technical fouls.

Jurassic
I am just saying if you give technical foul for that comment you are setting a bad tone for the rest of the game. You are letting both coaches know that the shouldn't even talk to you, that is not a t-able offense in my book. As for the NFHS rulle book section you quoted, give me a break. If we called the game to the rule book every game would take 3 hours and we would call 95 fouls a game. This is way we need "good judgement" to apply the rules in game context.

Jurassic Referee · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 25, 2006, 06:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonRef

Jurassic
I am just saying if you give technical foul for that comment you are setting a bad tone for the rest of the game. You are letting both coaches know that the shouldn't even talk to you, that is not a t-able offense in my book. As for the NFHS rulle book section you quoted, give me a break. If we called the game to the rule book every game would take 3 hours and we would call 95 fouls a game. This is way we need "good judgement" to apply the rules in game context.

I still disagree. It's not totally wrong at all imo.

You might be setting a good tone for the rest of that game instead. Every situation is different. In some situations, a "T" might be needed to keep the game under control. And you're also letting both coaches know where your personal line is, not that they can't talk to you. There's a heckuva difference between a coach asking a question and a coach whining about not getting calls. Asking a civil question about a specific call isn't a "T"able offense; moaning about not getting calls could be a "T"able offense. Note that I said "could be", not "is".

"Good judgement" includes knowing when a "T" is needed and necessary also. If you wanna let the coaches work you without any fear of retribution, hey, good luck to you. I sureasheck don't recommend it as a blanket approach for all situations and all officials though.

REFVA · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 25, 2006, 07:17am

I guess I was not clear enough in describing everything to that point. He was questioning every call. In doing that I saw a frustration on his boys face. They were starting to foul a little harder. The coach was saying these comments loud enough to have the whole gym hear him. Comments made were just out of line.

I put blame on myself that I didn't have the conversation with him earlier in the game. I also didn't handle the situation as I would in school ball.

Thanks for all you remarks. It allows me to become a better official..