0 or 00

Nevadaref · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 02:39am

BV league game. First place and hosting of the post-season tournament on the line. Both teams submit written lists to the scorer with their team rosters. I check the book at the 11 minute mark and all players are listed in ascending numerical order. The count of players on the court matches up. I notice that the first number listed for the visiting team is 0. I also see the written list that the team submitted and it also lists the kid as a single zero. The kids all have shooting shirts on during warm-ups so their numbers are not visible during this time.

I recall the rule that a team may no longer have both zero and double-zero, so I give a quick scan down the roster to make sure that there is not a double-zero listed. There isn't.

Well, the anthem is played and the starters are being announced. The first starter called out for the visitors is announced as number zero. He runs onto the court wearing double-zero!
All other starters are fine.

How many of you would start the game with a team technical foul and correct the number in the scorebook from zero to double-zero?

JRutledge · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 02:48am

I would not say a word. I would just let it go. Unless the name was wrong, I would just let it go.

Peace

totalnewbie · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 03:04am

Since I wont be working that game for a number of years

I'll answer in response as if this happened at a boys or girls JV game. Plus, that might spur discussion of whether or not the level of the game changes the answer.

It appears that the rule book contemplates that 0 and 00 are allowable but that no team may have both.

The question becomes: is the reason for "no 0 and 00" because the rules contemplate them as the same number?

If so, then there is no T since 0 and 00 are the same number.

If not, then the rules view them as different numbers and the player is not wearing a proper number as reflected in the book and its a T.

My problem is that while, like NR, I know that you cant have a 0 and 00 on the same team, off the top of my head I dont remember where that rule is or what the reasoning for it is.

SO...because I dont have full knowledge of the reason for the rule, I would NOT have called the T so long as there was not also a number 0 and would have treated 0 and 00 as the same number.

But that said, had I believed the rule was that 0 and 00 were seperate numbers I would have given the T and started the game with 2 shots and a throw in. Some say ignore that cheesy stuff. But on the other hand, one team did it right and the other team didnt. How about rewarding the team that managed to follow the rules. Now I cant wait to hear what people with actual experience (unlike me) would do. This is very helpful to my development.

Now I am going to bust out the rule book and find that 0/00 rule...

Clark

totalnewbie · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 03:11am

OK, here we go:

Quote:

Rule 4.3:

Each team member shall be numbered on the front and back of the team jersey with plain Arabic numerals. The following numbers are legal: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 00, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 20...

...it continues...

A team member list shall not have both numbers 0 and 00.

Given the above, it appears the rules contemplate that 0 and 00 are different numbers. If they believed them to be the same number then I believe the rule would read: "The following numbers are legal: 0 or 00, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 11, etc." Plus, they refer to them as "shall not have both numbers 0 and 00."

But then I am a lawyer so I get all picky about language.

So given that it appears that the rules contemplate 0 and 00 as different numbers, then we should call the T in the situation that NevadaRef described above. Its no different than being listed as number 4 and wearing number 44.

I cant wait to hear the discussion on this.

Clark

[Edited by totalnewbie on Jan 31st, 2005 at 03:14 AM]

totalnewbie · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 03:15am

Nevada, see my above post. You must have posted as I was posting

What do you think of my reasoning given the text of the rule?

Clark

Nevadaref · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 03:17am

Clark,
I agree with your reasoning and called the T. First time that I have ever started a game with a T.

I'm just looking for feedback from others. I wanted to see if the prevailing opinion was overwhelming one way or the other.

RookieDude · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 04:10am

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Clark,
I agree with your reasoning and called the T. First time that I have ever started a game with a T.

I'm just looking for feedback from others. I wanted to see if the prevailing opinion was overwhelming one way or the other.

OK...if you want feedback, I'll give you my opinion.

Excellent job...concerning the proper rules application.

Now, for what I would have done.
NOTHING. Except, told the score keeper to add another 0 and explain why so it doesn't happen again.

canuckrefguy · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 04:47am

I don't think the spirit of the rule intends to punish a team for a clerical error. There was no deliberate attempt to deceive or subvert the administration of the game. Just scribble in another "0" and toss it up.

RookieDude · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 04:52am

Quote:

Originally posted by totalnewbie
Its no different than being listed as number 4 and wearing number 44

Well...yes and no.

In basketball terms you could say 4 is a symbol and 0 is a symbol. 44 is another symbol and 00 is yet another. Therefore, you would be correct.

In real life 4 is a number and 0 is a number. (Mathmaticians have at it, as to weather they are whole numbers, odd, even, proper, etc.)

There are 40 different numbers between 4 and 44.
There are 0 numbers between 0 and 00.
The middle school girl doing the books has no idea that 0 is different than 00. It's just 0 to her.
Give her a lesson in basketball jargon...not mathmatics...and move on.

thumpferee · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 06:27am

You applied the rule and penalized accordingly.

The one thing which comes to mind is what is the next official going to do when the same roster is used the next game? Will he/she apply the rule?

Personally, I would have added the other 0 in the book myself and informed the coach so it wouldn't happen again.

Jurassic Referee · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 07:56am

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude
[/B]

1) Mathmaticians have at it, as to weather they are whole numbers, odd, even, proper, etc.

2)There are 40 different numbers between 4 and 44.

[/B][/QUOTE]1) Mr. Language Person says that the correct word is "whether".

2) Mr. Mathematics Person says that there are 39 different numbers between 4 and 44, not 40.

3) JR says that he agrees with you on the way that you said that you would have handled this one.

BktBallRef · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 08:29am

The purpose of the 0 and 00 rule is that they aren't both allowed because they are the same number.

No T from me.

joseph2493 · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 08:38am

If the book showed #4's number as "4" and he walked onto the court with "04" on the jersey...would you T them up because they left off the "O"?

NO T

[Edited by joseph2493 on Jan 31st, 2005 at 08:46 AM]

bob jenkins · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 08:44am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
The purpose of the 0 and 00 rule is that they aren't both allowed because they are the same number.

No T from me.

Ditto.

Mark Dexter · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 31, 2005, 09:04am

I'm not giving a T for this - as long as we don't have 0 and 00, we're okay.

Now for the reason as to this prohibition. It's not that 0 and 00 would be too hard to track in the scorebook (we scorers have learned how to figure out 4 and 44), but that computerized statistics programs can't differentiate between 0 and 00.

The next time you look at a (computerized) box score, look at the numbers - you'll noticed the players aren't listed as 2, 4, and 5 - they're listed as 02, 04, and 05.