The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack (1) Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  1 links from elsewhere to this Post. Click to view. #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 28, 2012, 09:28pm
Ok is the new good
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 385
Team Control Foul and Player Control

I am just going to ask this because I had a veteran tell me differently.

Do we shoot free throws for player control or team control fouls when the other team is in the bonus?

My understanding of rule 10-1B under penalties states no free throws and no exception is listed.

Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 28, 2012, 09:41pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Wheaton, IL
Posts: 23,654
If you know what the rule is, why are you asking?

Of course you do not shoot FTs on either of those situations. What is the definition of a player or team control foul?

Peace
__________________
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 28, 2012, 10:08pm
Ok is the new good
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
If you know what the rule is, why are you asking?

Of course you do not shoot FTs on either of those situations. What is the definition of a player or team control foul?

Peace
I was on the court today with a 20 yr vet and I called a player control foul and said white ball on the end line..he said nope bonus situation white to shoot! So I showed deference and thinking I misunderstood the rule somehow...

Truth be told it really P's me off..
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 28, 2012, 10:15pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Wheaton, IL
Posts: 23,654
Gotcha.

One thing younger officials need to learn is when to stand up in those situations. You were clearly right but the learning is when to stand your ground.

Keep in mind that someone working 20 years might be a person with 20 one year experiences. Now you know, now do not let anyone do that to you again without a fight.

That is a pretty basic rule and I am shocked that a person of that experience would not at least know that. But then again nothing really surprises me anymore.

Peace
__________________
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 28, 2012, 10:53pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Gotcha.

One thing younger officials need to learn is when to stand up in those situations.

Peace
I hear you Rut...but, I have a little different perspective for this and other Rookie officials.

If the ROOKIE official is 100% sure that a rule is being misapplied by your VETERAN partner...then the ROOKIE official can politely ask the VETERAN to let you "live or die" with this call. If the VETERAN is adamant about doing it "there way" then, IMO, let them "live or die" with it. You can look it up, TOGETHER, after the game.

If you are playing the odds...usually the Veteran will be correct. The Rookie does not want to be "that guy" that is argumentative with the veterans. Be "that guy" that is respectful and correct! Also, be thankful to the veteran when a lesson on the court has been experienced.

This officiating gig is kind of political...if you haven't heard.
__________________
Dan Ivey
Tri-City Sports Officials Asso. (TCSOA)
Member since 1989
Richland, WA
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 28, 2012, 11:12pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,235
Food for thought...

A couple of years ago, I'm working with a well-repsected veteran, JV boys.

Blue grabs a defensive rebound, and I'm a transitioning lead. I get halfway down the new frontcourt, when I hear a whistle behind me. My partner has blue foul, and he's calling for #20 white to take free throws. I hold him up at the table.

Me: "I was back there. Who had the foul?"
Him: "Blue #10."
Me: "Okay. So, it was a team control foul?"
Him: "Yeah, Blue #10."
Me: "Right. So, it was a team control foul?"
He pauses.
Me: "Where was the foul?"
He points to the spot, and it dawns on him.
Me: "I'll get the ball. You get the throw-in."
Him (smiles): "Thanks."

Rook, my veteran may have been receptive than yours. Still, sometimes, you just have to reiterate the situation, and let the synapses connect.
__________________
Confidence is a vehicle, not a destination.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 28, 2012, 11:23pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Wheaton, IL
Posts: 23,654
You are right you do not want to be "the guy" that argues, but you would not be "arguing" a wrong point. It is one thing to argue or to "yeah but" in an issue of a mechanic or a philosophy, but when you are working with someone and they are totally wrong about of all things a rule, that is unacceptable. At least you are in a position of strength. You can say "I tried."

But in the times I have been an official a PC foul never has resulted in FTs and TC fouls have been a recent rule change. I am just more shocked that any official with 5-10 years would not know this rule. You are right, things can be political but not sure this is about politics, but is about incompetence.

Peace
__________________
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 29, 2012, 01:04am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie View Post
I was on the court today with a 20 yr vet and I called a player control foul and said white ball on the end line..he said nope bonus situation white to shoot! So I showed deference and thinking I misunderstood the rule somehow...

Truth be told it really P's me off..
Does your area require a rules exam every year? Amazing as it may seem, I've learned that several areas do not. Once the official obtains a certain certification level, he never needs to take the test again!
Perhaps your 20-year vet hadn't opened a rules book in 15 years.
__________________
When there is a double whistle, the first one to the table wins.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 29, 2012, 01:34am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Wheaton, IL
Posts: 23,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Does your area require a rules exam every year? Amazing as it may seem, I've learned that several areas do not. Once the official obtains a certain certification level, he never needs to take the test again!
Perhaps your 20-year vet hadn't opened a rules book in 15 years.
I seriously doubt a rules test has anything to do with this situation. And if it is the NF test, I have less confidence in that having much to do with this situation either. People pick up rulebooks despite what test they have to take. At least that is my experience.

Peace
__________________
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 29, 2012, 06:20am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 12,400
Signals ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie View Post
I called a player control foul and said white ball on the end line, he said nope bonus situation white to shoot!
Is it possible that he did not see your player control foul, or team control foul, signal? Is it possible that you did not give the correct player control foul, or team control foul, signal?

If neither is the case, did your bring up the situation, after the game, in the locker room, with your rulebook in your hand?

Last season I almost gave the ball to the wrong team on throwin because my partner did not give a team control foul signal.
__________________
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Oct 29, 2012 at 07:38am.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 29, 2012, 09:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Is it possible that he did not see your player control foul, or team control foul, signal? Is it possible that you did not give the correct player control foul, or team control foul, signal?

What was the actual sitch that resulted in you whistling the PC foul? Take us through it, including (to BillyMac's point) your siganal and reporting mechanic.

If neither is the case, did your bring up the situation, after the game, in the locker room, with your rulebook in your hand?
.
Also curious as to if/how this was covered in your post game.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 29, 2012, 10:08am
Adam's Avatar
Welcome Corporate Masters
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: < 6999 feet
Posts: 24,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJUmp View Post
Also curious as to if/how this was covered in your post game.
Vet most likely had a brain fart, and my experience is that most of them appreciate if you take a moment to clarify. Approach him, and quietly remind him that you don't shoot on PC or TC fouls. If he still insists, and you don't want to look horrible on the court, no problem.

Even more important here, imo, is a good post game discussion.

As Billy noted, he may not have known you had ruled it a pc. Or, he may have disagreed.

What was the situation?
__________________
Not my circus, not my monkeys.

Last edited by Adam; Mon Oct 29, 2012 at 10:11am.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 29, 2012, 01:21pm
Ok is the new good
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Vet most likely had a brain fart, and my experience is that most of them appreciate if you take a moment to clarify. Approach him, and quietly remind him that you don't shoot on PC or TC fouls. If he still insists, and you don't want to look horrible on the court, no problem.

Even more important here, imo, is a good post game discussion.

As Billy noted, he may not have known you had ruled it a pc. Or, he may have disagreed.

What was the situation?
He knew that I had called a Player Control and when he lined up the players on the line to shoot..b4 I stepped in and said to him I called a PC..so why are we shooting..His response was we are in the bonus...
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 29, 2012, 01:24pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Wheaton, IL
Posts: 23,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie View Post
He knew that I had called a Player Control and when he lined up the players on the line to shoot..b4 I stepped in and said to him I called a PC..so why are we shooting..His response was we are in the bonus...
SMDH!!!!

Peace
__________________
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 29, 2012, 01:50pm
JWP JWP is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 23
Brain freeze

Sometimes, the old computer upstairs just malfunctions. Last season, during an eighth-grade boys game, my very experienced, usually right-on partner called a five-second closely guarded call in the backcourt. After the game, he slapped himself upside the head ... he couldn't believe he had made such an error.

Me ... well, I'm the guy who, during a game featuring one team in white uniforms and the other team in blue uniforms, saw the ball go out of bounds, blew his whistle, raised his hand and shouted loud enough for the entire gym to hear, "Green ball!"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: http://forum.officiating.com/basketball/92796-team-control-foul-player-control.html
Posted By For Type Date
the Refs | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com This thread Refback Sun Dec 29, 2013 09:28pm

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Player Control or Team Control Foul The_Rookie Basketball 1 Sun Jan 16, 2011 03:19pm
Player Control and Team Control fouls MelbRef Basketball 15 Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:43pm
player control/team control hardwoodballers Basketball 56 Wed Aug 23, 2006 08:41am
team control and and player controp foul humm stewcall Basketball 66 Wed May 11, 2005 08:24am
Player control vs Team control foul QuebecRef87 Basketball 6 Wed Jan 26, 2005 06:42am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:39pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1